Proposal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

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Pat Trembath
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Proposal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by Pat Trembath »

As a signatory to the letter to local MPs expressing concerns about the process and abysmal lack of community engagement since the proposals were announced on 3 October last year, I invite others concerned to sign the petition with the link below

http://www.change.org/petitions/members ... ation-for-
Eagle
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Location: F Hill

Re: Propsal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by Eagle »

Whilst partly agreeing with these comments , I cannot help thinking what , if any , locals were consulted in 1850's when original building moved from Hyde Park.
Sydenham
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Re: Propsal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by Sydenham »

I've signed it, It doesn't appear to be making any demands and is requesting advice from our elected representatives which is one of their responsibilities to us, their constituents - unless I've misread it in some way.
Pat Trembath
Posts: 613
Joined: 2 Oct 2004 10:54

Re: Propsal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by Pat Trembath »

You are quite right Sydenham. The purpose of the petition is to ensure correct process and proper community engagement. If the community engagement is carried out properly then the results of this will be fed into the planning process and show that local residents around the park have had an opportunity to have their say - yay or nay.

Please, Admin, will you make this thread a "sticky" one - thank you


http://www.change.org/petitions/members ... ation-for-
Tim Lund
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Re: Propsal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by Tim Lund »

But how long will the process take, and what happens if, after many years, the commuity endorsed scheme can find no one to pay for it? Will that be a success for the community?
Tim Lund
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Location: Silverdale

Re: Propsal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by Tim Lund »

I've not got round to googling all of them, but if anyone looks at the signatories to this petition, they will find many of the names involved in community consultation about Crystal Palace over the decades, although the lead petitioner is something of a new kid on the block,

Image

whose business's mission is
to develop market infrastructure for impact investing and enhance its investibility as an integrated global market
He also has an interest in "how we are explaining social impact investment to the masses"
The extent of debate (and often disagreement) about the definition of social impact investment is fascinating – exploring in great depth the nuances and prerequisite principles for investing in a way that seeks both positive social outcomes and financial returns. But this discourse risks being divisive and self-defeating. Does this complexity actually attract or repel new investors from engaging in this exciting market?
Source here

Something tells me this petition also risks being divisive and self-defeating.
hairybuddha

Re: Propsal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by hairybuddha »

Something tells me the upper part of Crystal Palace Park is destined to remain a wasteland for many decades to come.
Pat Trembath wrote:Propsal
Image
Tim Lund
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Joined: 13 Mar 2008 18:10
Location: Silverdale

Re: Propsal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by Tim Lund »

In the petitioners' letter there is this information about the developers:
We note that ZRG is a private company headquartered in Shanghai and is ostensibly a subsidiary of the ZhongRong International Holding Company domiciled in Hong Kong [3]. It has been confirmed to us by ZRG’s agents that the Chinese Government is an investor in ZhongRong.
Which at least is something. In connection with another current developent, 278 - 280 Kirkdale
Tim Lund wrote:... The only issue, really, is why it has taken so long.

Do we know who the investors are? If so, we could all pass on our thoughts and appreciation directly, without having to trouble Pat with filtering whatever gets posted for onward transmission.
to which Pat replied:
Pat Trembath wrote:The investors are aware of my posting; I have been waiting for the pile driving to start before posting.

When they read Sydenham Town Forum I'm sure they will be pleased to find a welcome for their plans from local residents.
and later
Pat Trembath wrote:For information from the developers:

The pile driving that was being carried out a few days ago was purely exploratory ground works. The piling proper should now be starting in mid Jan, everything just takes so much longer than one hopes!

The developers state that they underestimated the implications of releasing the news/proposed timescales for works at 278-280 Kirkdale to me, in the sense of not realising the huge amount of positive interest it would generate through the posting. Whilst very encouraged by people's positivity and intrigue regretfully, being a small developer, there are not the facilities nor time to spare time for blogging with half of Sydenham!
Perhaps these developers do not feel it is worth their time communicating with the signatories of this petition, so allowing Pat to spend more time with those developers who do chose to use her as their local PR expert.
Sid Nam
Posts: 43
Joined: 7 Oct 2013 06:51
Location: Sydenham

Re: Propsal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by Sid Nam »

Pat Trembath wrote:You are quite right Sydenham. The purpose of the petition is to ensure correct process and proper community engagement. If the community engagement is carried out properly then the results of this will be fed into the planning process and show that local residents around the park have had an opportunity to have their say - yay or nay.

Please, Admin, will you make this thread a "sticky" one - thank you


http://www.change.org/petitions/members ... ation-for-
Signed.
michael
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Joined: 26 Sep 2006 12:56
Location: Forest Hill

Re: Propsal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by michael »

It looks like the petition has already had a result with a drop in session planned on the 1st February:

DATE: Saturday 1st February 2014
TIME: 11.00 – 17.00
PROJECT UPDATE: Short presentation followed by a question and answer session with the project team at the following times: 11.30, 13.30 and 15.30
VENUE: Anerley Town Hall, Anerley Road, London, SE20 8BD


If you are unable to make this session the next drop in event will be on Saturday 1st March, 11.00-17.00 in The Lodge, Crystal Palace Park, and we’ll be sending out further information about this closer to the time.

I think I can make the flyer available here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-GgUX ... sp=sharing
Nigel
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Joined: 22 May 2005 16:12
Location: Laurie Park

Re: Proposal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by Nigel »

Pat
I have signed and I think its a no brainer to want more detail and demand more consultation. Too many people have been seduced by a very glossy brochure with little in it . I will be very clear and say I would not risk the park, even with it its neglected areas if it meant we could be getting a vile corporate structure with all sorts of merchandising and housing .
I note the conspiracy theorists and home economists are already lining up but it is surely a sane and reasonable thing to want to know what this organisation , and Bromley Council intend to do with our park .

My instinct , is that the development is tawdry , retrograde and over blown. It has no architectural merit in my view and for that reason alone I am against on the basis of what I have seen. When you add to that the risk of financial exploitation that will be unstoppable, then I am very concerned indeed
A very good evening
Nigel
Tim Lund
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Re: Proposal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by Tim Lund »

Nigel wrote: My instinct , is that the development is tawdry , retrograde and over blown. It has no architectural merit in my view and for that reason alone I am against on the basis of what I have seen.
Let's not quibble about retrograde and overblown - a full scale replica of the original can hardly avoid being these - but to say it has no architectural merit suggests that the original had none either. As to the architectural detail of any modern rebuild, it's hard to form a judgement, given that the deadline for firms to enter the competition was only two days ago
Anyone interested in creating a landmark in the spirit of Joseph Paxton’s original has until January 20 to send their expressions of interest to the property developer.

A shortlist of three architect teams will then be drawn up in the spring with the trio invited to prepare a detailed submission including initial concept designs.

The selected architect, due to be appointed in the summer, will work closely with the lead consultant Arup.
Source Newsshopper

But somehow, I doubt if that will stop Nigel damning the proposal out of hand.

Anyway, here are some images of what the developer is thinking, from Archdaily.com, "the world's most visited architecture website"

Image

Image

Image

I admit that I may be being simple minded here. If anyone wants a more sophisticated discussion - and maybe Nigel can help me make sense of it - there is lots on Karl Richter's own blog - A new Crystal Palace: phoenix rising or setting sun?

Passing through socio-economic stresses in China we get to his vision of what we might prefer to the retrograde and overblown, before finishing off with an impressive list of his qualifications.
Socio-economic stresses in China

Mr Ni is also probably very aware of the growing discontent among China’s swelling middle class. Leading even China’s political elite at Central Party School to “talk of the unthinkable: the collapse of Chinese communism”, so says Jamil Anderlini in this article in the Financial Times. The article continues, quoting David Shambaugh, director of the China Policy Program at George Washington University:

“…a powerful indicator of just how little faith exists in the system is the number of wealthy Chinese elites with offshore assets and property, offshore bank accounts and children studying in western universities.”

” ‘These individuals are ready to bolt at a moment’s notice, as soon as the political system is in its endgame – but they will remain in China in order to extract every last Renminbi possible until that time,’ he says. ‘Their hedging behaviour speaks volumes about the fragile stability of the party state in China today.’ “

Mr Ni, one of China’s wealthiest men, is openly proud that his daughters are studying in the UK – he made that point in his speech at the press conference. From what we know about him, he seems to fit Shambaugh’s description, although he may not agree with the sentiments therein.

A pleasant surprise for all – maybe

If Mr Ni has the desire to leave behind a positive legacy in China as well as globally, then he may (or at least he should) also be interested in understanding more about ways to harness the bottom-up power of local communities. The lessons he will garner in building a People’s Palace in the UK could actually be exported to China to help mitigate or counter emerging social stresses – if indeed the Chinese single party state model is straining, as Shambaugh says above.

If Mr Ni doesn’t like the concept of building a People’s Palace or the idea of PhilanthroCapitalism (see definition above), then in my opinion he is the wrong man to attempt rebuilding the Crystal Palace. However, if he understands the value of these concepts, then it is potentially win-win-win for the Crystal Palace community, China and the UK – because:

We get money to fix and run our park,
China (via Mr Ni) gets an understanding that could help alleviate emerging social stresses domestically, and
The UK is able to showcase its strengths in innovation and reposition itself as exporter of cutting-edge know-how.

Think outside the box – literally

Image
Photo: Wilkinson Eyre Architects

In 2003 Wilkinson Eyre Architects designed this innovative concept for a structure on the site of the former Crystal Palace. It is certainly not of the scale envisioned by Mr Ni in rebuilding the palace, but it is a good modern interpretation that successfully avoids pastiche. It also very sensitively recognises that today, unlike when the original palace was built, the scarce commodity is urban parkland and not buildings.

By designing a building that floats above the ground the architects actually minimise the footprint and allow people to enjoy the amenity of the park beneath it as much as the building itself.

To be clear – I’m not a proactive advocate of building on the site at all, but if something must be built then I would much rather it was in the direction of the Wilkinson Eyre concept than the INFOMART in Texas.

Imagine the Wilkinson Eyre design with the following attributes:
  • a larger scale structure to accommodate the space requirements of the ZhongRong project
  • a subterranean car park hidden from view and covered with grass
  • a green roof garden on top of the building – essentially creating a new park in the sky
This would:
  • Enable a way for the ZhongRong proposal to go ahead
  • Remove unsightly car parking and asphalt from the Crystal Palace Park, increasing in real terms the amount of grass in the park and delivering much needed car parking for local High Street traders
  • Local residents would be able to walk under the building on the ridge site, currently this area is fenced off from public access, so in practical terms this would increase the space and amenity value of the park
  • A public roof garden that could be accessed free of charge would add new and additional area to the park that currently doesn’t exist
  • A public roof garden would serve as a look-out platform from which to enjoy views across London and be an attraction that would draw people to Crystal Palace
  • Messrs Ni, Johnson and Cameron might secure a legacy of being involved in a creation that would have the potential to be a jewel in the crown of the local community, London, the UK and the world.
Food for thought…

-

All opinions herein are personal and do not necessarily reflect the views of the organisations the writer is involved with. The writer is a local Crystal Palace resident; Chair of the Friends of the Crystal Palace Subway; founder and Joint Chief Executive of Engaged Investment; social impact investment advisor to the Euclid Network; Fellow of the Finance Innovation Lab; an UnLtd award winner for social innovators; member of the Groupe d’Experts de la Commission sur l’Entrepreneuriat Social (GECES), appointed by the European Commission to advise on its Social Business Initiative. Formally a founding principal of urban regeneration business Entity Partnerships.
Pat Trembath
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Re: Proposal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by Pat Trembath »

The purpose of the petition is to ensure correct process and proper community engagement.

Arup have now announced a open meeting on 1 February at Anerley Town Hall from 11 am till 5 pm with presentations and Qs and As at 11.30, 1.30 and 3.30. This programme is a great improvement on the previous community engagement meeting which was held at Upper Norwood, on a week day with little publicity.

If the community engagement is carried out properly then the results of this will be fed into the planning process and will demonstrate that local residents around the park have had an opportunity to have their say - yay or nay.


http://www.change.org/petitions/members ... ation-for-
Tim Lund
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Re: Proposal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by Tim Lund »

If we can get a quick yay or nay that will be fantastic. Given the track record of the self appointed voices of the community behind this petition, I doubt very much if their involvement is going to help.
michael
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Re: Proposal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by michael »

Tim Lund wrote:If we can get a quick yay or nay that will be fantastic. Given the track record of the self appointed voices of the community behind this petition, I doubt very much if their involvement is going to help.
Not that I agree with your attack on those behind the petition, but your concern is exactly why it is so important for people to go along to the public meetings to express their opinions on the project. I would be very surprised if anybody was able to give a quick yay or nay to a project that is not yet fully developed.

But it would seem that with the announcement of these meetings the need for the petition is questionable, as it is at least meeting some of the key concerns expressed in the petition.
Nigel
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Re: Proposal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by Nigel »

Tim
What an earth are you insinuating ? You may just have to accept that not every good idea comes from you - is there anyone that you don't publicly undermine that is not dead , Greek or published in some minority interest journal ?
The proposal is for better consultation to give people the opportunity to make better decisions whether to support the project .
The alternative seems to be your , with respect , nonsense about the "socio-economic stresses in China".
One final point - the pyramids were not tacky - building one in Las Vegas certainly was . My opinion about impersonating the original is valid - no architectural merit on my view and no understanding of how overblown this building would be or modern use . Hence my fear of merchandising to backfill and your beloved hi-density housing
Good evening
Nigel
CaptainCarCrash
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Re: Proposal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by CaptainCarCrash »

I can't wait for it to be finished I'm going to attend the grand opening when it's finished.

I fully support the idea and hope that the killjoys don't spoil it for everyone else. CP is a bit run down in some respects and this would supply a few jobs for the local community.
Tim Lund
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Location: Silverdale

Re: Proposal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by Tim Lund »

michael wrote:
Tim Lund wrote:If we can get a quick yay or nay that will be fantastic. Given the track record of the self appointed voices of the community behind this petition, I doubt very much if their involvement is going to help.
Not that I agree with your attack on those behind the petition,
I don't expect you to agree, at least not publicly, because challenging self appointed community leaders causes all sort of annoyance, not least from those in the media and authority who have lazily taken them as such. After all, if the credentials of one group can be challenged, might not those of other groups also come under scrutiny? And so as sort of communitarian omertà pervades. Bring back straightforward representative democracy, I say :)

At the risk of infringing a variant of Godwin's Law, the situation is analogous to that of the journalist, Martin Bright, who in 2005 made himself very unpopular by querying how representative the people were who the Labour Government was taking as representatives of Muslims in this country.

In this case, as I think my Googling shows, it is quite easy to see that the lead author of this petition has very little connection with what ordinary people want, and is playing community games for how good they will look in his uber trendy career portfolio.
I’ve been invited by civil society organisations, academic institutions and governments across Europe, Asia and USA to speak on social impact investment; including guest lectures to MBA students at Oxford and Cambridge Universities. I have advised HM Treasury on EU social investment regulations, was invited to submit evidence regarding alternative finance to the UK’s Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, been asked by the UK Cabinet Office to represent the UK on social investment at EU level, and was invited by Sec Hillary Clinton to speak on a plenary panel at US State Department’s Global Impact Economy Forum 2012.
Source here

I can just imagine the excitement of those Oxford and Cambridge MBA students when they realise they are being lectured by someone who has actually had contact with the community in Sarf East London.

But how, I wonder, does HM Treasury respond to his advice?
Image
If Cameron’s “Big Society” is a call to arms and modern capitalism the front-line in rebalancing social and financial agendas; then we are still mobilising ourselves no better than eager freedom fighters. Quixotic vengeance and impassioned goodwill without a coherent plan of action will not achieve the reforms we require. Our growing army of the willing needs strong leadership, a substantive increase in capital resource, to be better coordinated, the ability to harness dissent, the flexibility to deal with the unknown, and the best action plan we can conceive – the JenLi Manifesto is the arsenal for such a plan.

Thatcherite-Reaganomics and the Efficient Market Hypothesis have been satisfactorily debunked by the events of the 2007-09 financial crisis; there is now an emerged global consensus that we need system change – Mervyn King (Governor of the Bank of England) acknowledged this in no uncertain terms: “Of all the many ways of organising banking, the worst is the one we have today.”
The JenLi Manifesto – Part 1: A Convenient Truth

Why do I let this bother me? Well, mainly because it perpetuates the impression so many people have - e.g. Nigel - that beyond a certain point, and outside a few subjects, such as medicine, the use of the intellect just leads to spouting this sort of b******t.

Another reason is that his guy has got himself to be the chair of the Crystal Palace Subway group, so will presumably be missing opportunities to work with these new investors to restore this small remaining part of the original glory of the Crystal Palace.
Last edited by Tim Lund on 1 Feb 2014 16:48, edited 2 times in total.
Tim Lund
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Re: Proposal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by Tim Lund »

Nigel wrote:The alternative seems to be your , with respect , nonsense about the "socio-economic stresses in China".
Not my nonsense - I was quoting the petition's author :)
Nigel wrote:One final point - the pyramids were not tacky - building one in Las Vegas certainly was . My opinion about impersonating the original is valid - no architectural merit on my view and no understanding of how overblown this building would be or modern use .
Re imitating the pyramids - the steeple here, a deliberate reference to a similar bit of Ancient architecture - was roundly mocked when it went up a few years ago:

Image
michael
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Joined: 26 Sep 2006 12:56
Location: Forest Hill

Re: Proposal to rebuild the Crystal Palace

Post by michael »

Tim Lund wrote:
michael wrote:Not that I agree with your attack on those behind the petition,
I don't expect you to agree, at least not publicly, because challenging self appointed community leaders causes all sort of annoyance, not least from those in the media and authority who have lazily taken them as such. After all, if the credentials of one group can be challenged, might not those of other groups also come under scrutiny? And so as sort of communitatian omertà pervades. Bring back straightforward representative democracy, I say :)
I don't agree with you publicly or privately. It is not for fear that other groups might come under scrutiny. It is because I believe that a public consultation will show exactly how local people feel on a range of complicated issues relating to the Crystal Palace proposals. Since the petition's aim is to increase community engagement (not just with self appointed community leaders) I have no reason to attack them publicly or privately, and I still don't quite understand why you do.
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