Where is the Sydenham Gap?

[perryman]

'Cols and Passes of the British Isles' by Graham Robb mentions the Sydenham Gap, and I wondering if anyone has a clue to what he is referring.

A col, or gap, is the low point between 2 (significant) hills. I guess the Sydenham Gap would have been on an ancient path way too for it to merit a mention. But I have never heard of it.

It might not even be near a main road now, as the Romans tended to build them from peak to peak to minimise ambush.
The easier path was not always the safest, but I'd quite like to know where it was anyway...

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2016 ... and-passes

[Robin Orton]

I wondered about this too. Presumably a pass between the Kent and Surrey sides of Sydenham Hill. There's the top of Kirkdale, but that's hardly a col, because I don't think there's a significant 'peak' either side. How about the South Circular by Horniman Park?

Incidentally, the idea that cols or passes (bwlch, bealach) have disappeared from the map in Britain is strange one to a hill walker. Honister Hawse/Pass, Wrynose Pass, Kirkstone Pass, Nant Ffrancon Pass, Llanberis Pass, Bwlch Tryfan, Pass of Glencoe...

[Sydenham Syd]

'Cols and Passes of the British Isles' by Graham Robb mentions the Sydenham Gap, and I wondering if anyone has a clue to what he is referring.

A col, or gap, is the low point between 2 (significant) hills. I guess the Sydenham Gap would have been on an ancient path way too for it to merit a mention. But I have never heard of it.

It might not even be near a main road now, as the Romans tended to build them from peak to peak to minimise ambush.
The easier path was not always the safest, but I'd quite like to know where it was anyway...

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2016 ... and-passes

I think the nearest Gap is in Bromley

[perryman]

Robin,

I was going to mention London Rd by Hornimans, diving between Liphook Crescent Hill (for want of a better name) and Sydenham Hill, or
Wood Vale - the clue in the name I guess - another example of a local low pass, cutting between 'Liphook' Hill and Dawson's Hill/Overhill Rd or
Perry Vale, cutting between 'Christchurch' Hill and Peak Hill.
All 3 are pretty old roads,... but then I remembered I was not on the SE23 forum.

I do not know Sydenham as well, but I can't think of any obvious 'Vales'.
I think of the high parts as one long ridge - with no obvious gaps.
And the low parts as being pretty flat.

There are some pretty deep railway cuttings in the area, and I guess it is possible the companies made use of an existing feature, but those Victorians could shift an awful lot of earth when they wanted, so it is impossible to tell.

[Pat Trembath]

Why not the railway line cutting through Sydenham Hill Woods - with a purpose built bridge to cross the gap?

Lonnie Donnegan's "Cumberland Gap" referring to 15 miles of railway track comes to mind....

[Pat Trembath]

OK - so it's Lonnie Donegan with one 'n' and the Cumberland Gap is in the USA... and the gap was 15 miles, not the railway track - should have googled first...

[Manwithaview1]

'Cols and Passes of the British Isles' by Graham Robb mentions the Sydenham Gap, and I wondering if anyone has a clue to what he is referring.

A col, or gap, is the low point between 2 (significant) hills. I guess the Sydenham Gap would have been on an ancient path way too for it to merit a mention. But I have never heard of it.

It might not even be near a main road now, as the Romans tended to build them from peak to peak to minimise ambush.
The easier path was not always the safest, but I'd quite like to know where it was anyway...

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2016 ... and-passes

I would have thought the Sydenham Gap is between Upper Norwood/Sydenham Hill and Beckenham Hill.

I had the pleasure of meeting Lonnie Donegan once, lovely quiet unassuming man.

[perryman]

I'd be very disappointed if the Sydenham gap turned out to be the one now crossed by 'Pissarro's' bridge at Sydenham Hill Woods - it is a very small gap and the golf course side hill is more like a mound of earth.
I'm looking for something more geographically significant - the author wants to name a sandwich after it, after all.

However the River Pool basin between Sydenham and Beckenham hills surely is far too big - and if every river basin was considered a 'col' we'd be overrun with the things - there are not that many sandwich fillings in the world ...

But I think I've found it, to my own satisfaction anyway.
I set the sea flood level to 50m on http://flood.firetree.net/, a level we are not due to reach for a couple more years yet, and it shows a very likely East-West gap at the Saxon settlement area of Selhurst junction.

It is not exactly Sydenham, but it is a gap between the Sydenham ridge of 109m and the Croydon/Coombe/Addington hills of 135m. It is not a river basin although admittedly the Norbury Brook crosses west here...

The railway companies took advantage of this low point to cross west without digging tunnels. But they totally blocked any ancient (or modern) low pass here, and so post peak oil, if you find yourself on the wrong side of the Sydenham ridge, with only a small donkey to pull your load and Peckham is too far north for your liking then the slightly higher path of the A222/ St James Rd/Lower Addiscombe Rd (the clue was in the name all along) is the road to take....just south of the Sydenham Gap.

[Robin Orton]

I'm reasonably confident that if there's a river or stream on/in it, it can't be a col or pass. A col is a dip in a ridge, not between ridges. It is likely to be (will always be?) a watershed.

Any geography teachers out there?

[marymck]

I'm reasonably confident that if there's a river or stream on/in it, it can't be a col or pass. A col is a dip in a ridge, not between ridges. It is likely to be (will always be?) a watershed.

Any geography teachers out there?

I know we're not supposed to rely on Wikipedia, but on this sort of subject they're probably reliable ...

In geomorphology, a col is the lowest point on a mountain ridge between two peaks.[1] It may also be called a notch, a gap or a saddle,[1] although the last-named usually has a wider meaning and may contain a mountain pass. Moreover, the term col tends to be associated more with mountain, rather than hill, ranges.[2]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Col

I'm away from home, with limited internet access and no relevant maps with me, but wouldn't an OS map show this? I also have an environment agency map at home, which shows the distinct line between London clay and sandy claygate beds + contour lines. Maybe that would offer some clues. (All I can remember is that part of the line runs at a diagonal across Mount Ash Road, through Mount Gardens and out onto Kirkdale where the spring at Otto Close used to be.)

I adopt an environmentally friendly approach to mobile technology - i.e. I don't update every couple of years! - so my five year old phone is now considered so ancient that I can't update the browser and so can view fewer and fewer websites. Frustratingly I can't view the Guardian, so I haven't been able to see the OP. I may have to swallow my principles and get a new phone