Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

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Pally
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by Pally »

simon wrote:On a related note; I was going to start another thread about the random 20 mph road markings that are springing up. We have one here at the end of Knighton Park Road notifying the residents of four houses that they are entering a 20 mph zone, but there is not one at the start of the road at Sydenham Road, or at the Kent House Road end of Hillmore Grove. I also noted one on Station Approach; does anyone really get up to 20 mph on there? I've seen one on Tewksbury Road but none anywhere else. Has anyone else spotted any?
I agree about Knighton Park and also Broseley Grove where 20mph signs have been put right at the end of both roads ....are we to assume we can all race round the three roads, (well 30 mph at least!) including Elvino, but have to slow to 20 for approximately 20yards? Completely mad!
Tadpole
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by Tadpole »

The daftest markings for 20mph has to be at the start of Recreation Road, the cul de sac that leads into Mayow Park.
The road is 8 houses long. I'd be hard pushed to get to 20mph after turning the corner without doing an emergency stop before hitting the gates. Waste of money putting it there.
GFA
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by GFA »

Tadpole wrote:The daftest markings for 20mph has to be at the start of Recreation Road, the cul de sac that leads into Mayow Park.
The road is 8 houses long. I'd be hard pushed to get to 20mph after turning the corner without doing an emergency stop before hitting the gates. Waste of money putting it there.
Ditto for Windfield Close!!
Pally
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by Pally »

So what's going on ...seems no logic to where 20mph being put!
Chris Best
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by Chris Best »

Lewisham is introducing 20mph on all Council roads - roads that are red routes (main roads with red lines such as the South Circular) remain at 30mph. The signage for the 20mph is currently being rolled out and motorists can reduce their speed now to 20 mph to improve community safety.
marymck
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by marymck »

... and increase pollution. Especially on hills. I believe this should have at least been debated in the Council chamber. But it was in the local Labour manifesto and Lewisham is now a one party borough. So it wasn't debated. I have asked for sight of the pollution predictions and studies used by Lewisham to support their decision. I believe LBL is relying on studies made on horizontal roads, not on hills. Studies on hills show that all motor vehicles pollute more going uphill at 20 than at 30.

Lewisham's local politicians are setting a ticking time bomb in our children's lungs and hearts. We need some long term thinking and responsibility from them, not just going for the self congratulatory headlines and photo opportunities that come with the simplistic label that they're "doing something" about road safety.
stuart
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by stuart »

marymck wrote:Lewisham's local politicians are setting a ticking time bomb in our children's lungs and hearts.
Only if they are still breathing and beating.

The whole point about the 20mph limit is it is the one pragmatic move which is likely to have the greatest effect in reducing urban road casualties and in particular the most vulnerable road users (read kids) - if enforced. They can live to die at the hands of the cheating motor manufacturers by other means (read VW diesels et al).

The issue of pollution is very real but a different one and one I probably feel as strongly about as yourself. Most ultra low pollution vehicles are actually more efficient at 20 mph than 30. Would you not be more effective in campaigning for the accelerated mandation of these vehicles for public transport and the roll out of the 'ultra-low pollution zones'?

Let's not get our wires crossed in campaigning for a better and safer environment. Both need to be successful.

Stuart
marymck
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by marymck »

Actually Stuart I just think our Councillors would be better putting their energies and our money into finding a solution that properly addressed the problem of pollution AND road safety and that they should have done that before going for a blanket 20mph zone. In other words, some joined up and long term thinking. And that thinking should include education and proper policing.

All motorised vehicles produce more engine/exhaust pollution going uphill at 20mph than at 30mph. And that's without taking into account the extra time that vehicles will spend with their engines running simply in getting from A to B. Nor does it take into account the extremely high level of particulates generated by road/tyre friction by electric vehicles - which appears to be far higher than even their diesel equivalents.

That said, I'm not against some roads being enforced as 20mph zones. But it needs to be thought through, and not a blanket 20mph whatever the road conditions and therefore whatever the resulting levels of pollution. And they need to compare the emission level studies they relied on (that should include particulate generation by tyre friction) and compare them side by side with the equivalent figures for vehicles going uphill. They're going to need to prove they've done that due diligence once the compensation claims start coming in in a few years time, so they may as well do it now. I've asked several times for a Q&A on this subject my ward assembly. No go. The 20mph blanket plan was in the Labour Party manifesto and people so people voted for a 20mph blanket ban. That's that. No debate. No information forthcoming.
marymck
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by marymck »

Getting back on track ...

Surely, once a prohibitory regulatory sign is displayed (in this case, the red bordered circular 20mph sign) then it is an offence to ignore that sign/instruction?

The powers that be might choose not to enforce it until a certain date, but how does the road user know that? And if it isn't enforced, why display it? And if it is enforced, we might argue that there wasn't a corresponding sign on the other side of the road, or that there were insufficient repeater signs, or whatever, but by the time we receive notice of a fine, how could we prove that?

It would be a simple matter for the installers to cover the regulatory signage until D-Day.
leenewham
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by leenewham »

I'd rather thane a 20 mph speed limit than speed bumps, which produce even more pollution.

But it depends on which road the speed limits are on. I totally agree on side roads, around schools etc. On busy main roads, it feels painfully slow and can encourage bad driving. Around Sydenham it's got to be ridiculous with people doing crazy things.

I was once chased down the pavement near the Lemon Tree by a car wanting to turn down Knighton Park Road because she couldn't wait for the traffic to move.

I've had cars overtake me while pulling out of junctions.

On Westwood hill I've seen cars overtake a car that was already overtaking a car!

It's a good policy, but it needs to be sensibly enforced. The South Circular should remain at 30mph.
marymck
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by marymck »

I agree Lee. 20mph better than speed bumps. But as you say it needs to be sensibly implemented, or it will lead to chaos. 20mph suits some roads but not others and definitely doesn't work on hills (apart from as a revenue earner from those caught going downhill). Unfortunately my road (a very steep hill ) will have both bumps and 20mph limit and both are bad ideas on hills.

Since the speed bumps were put in a few years ago it's become really difficult to cross the road, because drivers aren't consistent in how they handle the bump, so making it really difficult for a pedestrian to judge vehicle speed. When coming downhill some slow down almost to a stop, then rapidly accelerate between bumps. Others go at a snail's pace throughout, some take no notice of the bumps and some actively accelerate over them. And those cars that have their lights on all the time look as though they're flashing you to cross the road! The air quality has got a lot worse up here too since the bumps were introduced! And that's just the pollution one can see and taste. I gather the worst are the particulates one can't see.

I fear we'll probably lose our one and only bus service. The buses struggle uphill over the bumps, bellowing smoke, and won't cope with the added burden of the 20mph. We only get one bus every 20 mins at peak times. I guess if we retain the service at all it will reduce to one every 30 mins, because of the increased by a third journey times.

On the subject of bad temper and dangerous impatience, yesterday the traffic was at a standstill from Mount Gardens all the way down to those ridiculously badly placed traffic lights after Cobbs Corner. It was very entertaining watering my plants while watching the theatrical displays of furious arrogance of some drivers. Their choice of music which they thought they'd share with the world was less enjoyable.
Eagle
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by Eagle »

Mary

I agree. Looking for a laser to zap drivers of loud and crap music.

Only joking
Lois
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by Lois »

My correspondence with Cllr Rachel Onikosi:

Hi Rachel,

Lois here who spoke to you earlier today on the phone.
I walked down the road to take some photos.

Image No1 is going down Westwood Hill from the top of the hill at Sydenham Hill towards Sydenham Road.
This is the only 20 mph sign on this side of the road and being a small one is likely to cause sensible drivers to wonder why they missed the larger sign.
And this sign is almost hidden by the trees from the road so many may panic and throw on their brakes at the last minute.

Image No2 is the first sign coming up the hill from Sydenham road.
Again this is a small sign and the first one you come to and in the distance you can see the 20 mph camera sign.

Image No3 is the most confusing one which is closer to the camera.
20 mph or 30 mph?
Are we supposed to drive on the wrong side of the road if we want to do 30 mph?
(Apologies for that!)

At the top of the hill is a large 20 mph sign at the entrance to Sydenham Hill which will leave observant drivers wondering what on earth is going wrong and as you exit Sydenham Hill to turn left onto Westwood Hill there are of course, large 30 mph signs.
These signs really should be covered up until it goes live. Apart from anything else if drivers decided it’s 30 mph, which is has to be at the moment, they will ignore the 20 mph signs after it has gone live and end up with speeding fines.

More of an effort should have been made to alert Lewisham drivers that this is happening letting them know at what dates this will be effected.

Many thanks for taking an interest,
Lois



Hello Lois,

It was good speaking to you the other day and apologies for the confusion regarding the speed signs.

Good news, I have spoken to the appropriate Council officer who has liaised with the contractor who will cover the 30 mph signs by latest Monday if not completed already. As you know the Borough intends to roll out a 20 mph zone in early September so preparation is underway.

Kind Regards,
Councillor Rachel Onikosi



Hello again Rachel

This just isn’t good enough.
I was told that the date for Sydenham was 5th September
I am driving round the area including Forest Hill and don’t have a clue of what the speed limits are.

At the end of Sydenham Rise there is a 30 sign which has just been installed to tell drivers that the TFL road they are joining is 30mph and it is hidden in the trees!
Who puts up a new sign that is hidden to road users?

I want to know the official dates for Sydenham and for Forest Hill so that I know when they are all to be 20mph

Lois


That last one was sent today.
Lois
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by Lois »

The whole thing is a farce!

According to The Sydenham Society, Sydenham Hill will be reverting to 30mph even though it is not a TFL road.

That, if true, is welcome news but now they are making Westwood Hill 20mph.
I only hope that drivers don't take the same risks there as they have been taking on Sydenham Hill.

I am all for the residential streets being 20mph but there was no excuse at all to make Sydenham Hill a 20mph zone, especially with no intention of any enforcement. What is needed there is enforcement of the 30mph limit. That road is now far more dangerous than it was. I've seen pedestrians, including children, having to very quickly jump out of the way of cars overtaking at 40mph or more! To my knowledge there has only been one fatality on that road since I moved here in 1986 and that was a lone motorcyclist in the early hours of the morning.

Yet South Croxted Road, on which I personally know of at least 5 fatalities was made 20mph ages after Sydenham Hill was! That road should have been 20mph decades ago.

I really hope I am wrong, but I've had far more near misses on Sydenham Hill since it changed to 20mph than I had all the time it was 30mph since 1986.

I felt very sad and angry after a man was killed joining Crystal Palace Road from College road in the early hours many years ago back when we had the boy racers up and down the road, going the wrong way round the mini roundabouts for three evenings of every week! I had begged for a camera on that road and was told they would just smash it up. I was so frustrated that they wouldn't listen to me, even when I said I'd go to court when I was told that nobody would do that so there was nothing they could do. I said "So what you're telling me is that you are going to wait until somebody is killed and then put a camera in then". And unfortunately that is exactly what happened. Within a couple of weeks the tea hut and all the boy racers were gone. Just a little too late though :(

There is an easy solution to policing our speed limits but easy solutions don't ever seem to be popular and I'm fed up with arguing with the authorities who ignore me until there is a tragedy.

But whilst there was no enforcement for 30mph, to put up signs for 20mph and not make any attempt to enforce it and as good as state that on the LBL web site is criminal as far as I'm concerned.
Lois
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by Lois »

leenewham wrote:I'd rather thane a 20 mph speed limit than speed bumps, which produce even more pollution.
Don't imagine for a moment we will be rid of those!
All the studies say that signs plus other traffic calming measures are far more effective than signs alone.
Lois
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by Lois »

Oh and also consider the fact that the local driving test centres are not closing.
London will still have test centres and I will have the opportunity of becoming busier if I want to as many people will want to take their test here at 20mph.

They will do that and pass their driving test having never gone over 30mph and driven the route mostly on 20mph roads because now the examiners won't have time to get them to the faster roads, and then the next day they are free to drive up the country on Motorways.

I used to battle to get my pupils onto 60 or 70mph A roads but when they weren't included on the test they didn't want to pay for that tuition. And they rarely returned for a Motorway lesson after they passed their test.

I was over the moon when faster roads were included on the test as I could train them all on faster roads but now I will not be able to because a 2 hour lesson won't give me time to get them to those roads, give them tuition on those roads and bring them back. If they don't want to pay for a 2.5 or 3 hour lesson they simply will not receive that training, because believe me it won't take them long to realise they will no longer need it on their test here in London.

The one local test centre that will still have access to the faster roads, West Wickham, is to close within the year though.
None of this is about road safety at all.
Sydenham
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by Sydenham »

I do sympathise with you Lois. And you have demonstrated you have a proper professional eye on this - you speak from experience. Unfortunately there's currently little room for common sense and flexibility in local and central government - rules is rules and no room for exceptions.... Also truly local influence on decision making etc. is rarely possible.

The speed control is a mess - Southwark going back to 30 mph on Sydenham Hill is just one example, just as Lewisham change all adjoining roads to 20 mph. Also the signage...............

On balance though, despite agreeing with most of the 'local' issues you raise, I'm happier that the roads around me in Sydenham will generally all be 20 mph - despite the angst and extra vitriol raised. In some circumstances there will be an increased level of danger - in others a reduced level of danger. However its individuals who decide to go faster than they should in any circumstance - and this is irrespective of a speed limit. Sometimes on a 50 mph road it is only safe to do 30 mph (heavy snow / rain etc.) - the driver makes the decision. The limit is a maximum, and not a minimum.

And its up to us to encourage our local constabulary to police the limit where they can and our councillors to ensure proper education to all. But its also up to all of us to be responsible and recognise our obligations - campaign through whatever channel you can but respect the rule of law....
marymck
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by marymck »

From Rachel Onikosi's letter to Lois ...

"Good news, I have spoken to the appropriate Council officer who has liaised with the contractor who will cover the 30 mph signs by latest Monday if not completed already. As you know the Borough intends to roll out a 20 mph zone in early September so preparation is underway.

Kind Regards,
Councillor Rachel Onikosi"

What??? Surely it's the 20mph signage that needs to be covered until it goes live? Otherwise we're committing an offence every time we pass a prohibitory regulatory 20mph sign.

This whole business is a complete pickle of incompetence. Trust Lewisham to be jumping on the blanket 20mph wagon just as other areas are getting off. In Belfast it looks like being scrapped as ineffective because the police haven't caught anyone speeding. Thus proving it has nothing to do with road safety and it's all about revenue raising and ticking the electoral box to claim to have "done something" about road safety.
marymck
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by marymck »

I wonder how much this is costing the Council tax payer? And how that cost would compare with properly targeted 20mph areas (for example, outside schools and where road conditions make it a sensible long term solution that properly addresses air quality ... Def not on hills!) together with some education of pedestrians. We need to teach our children some old fashioned self preservation techniques of how to cross the road safely and adults need to be responsible for setting an example and taking their eyes off their phone screens when crossing the road.
stuart
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Re: Speed Camera Westwood Hill - Which speed???

Post by stuart »

marymck wrote: Thus proving it has nothing to do with road safety and it's all about revenue raising and ticking the electoral box to claim to have "done something" about road safety.
Have you read the research paper on which these decisions have been mainly based? It has been referenced on previous 20mph threads several times.

Could you also provide a source for your claim that ALL vehicles will produce more pollution when accelerating/de-accelerating to or from 20mph instead of 30mph. As for running continuously at 30mph (pretty rare on Lewisham's roads) that is mainly a matter of gearing of legacy vehicles. So overall how do you substantiate your claim that this is detrimental in aggregate?

Your comment about it reducing buses from 3 an hour to 2 can only be true if they maintain a steady speed of 30mph and don't stop (which would make them pretty pointless). That's impossible even under the 30 mph limit. Again have you a source which indicates the actual effect?

Stuart
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