Begging outside Sainsbury's local

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parker
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by parker »

What was I saying on this thread the other week?

https://se23.life/t/aggressive-and-viol ... oday/10099
John H
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by John H »

parker wrote:What was I saying on this thread the other week?

https://se23.life/t/aggressive-and-viol ... oday/10099
and guess what... the man I wrote about was on duty in Sainsbury's car park again today... dressed down. for the purpose of begging.


You take your life in your hands when you travel by public transport nowadays.
stuart
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by stuart »

John H wrote:You take your life in your hands when you travel by public transport nowadays.
Sphericals. Check the facts. It is one of the safest ways to travel ... why try and distort reality?

Stuart
The Clown
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by The Clown »

I agree with Stuart, I have lived in London for 20 years and have felt unsafe only a handful of times (never here, couple of times late at night walking through New Cross/Central London when there has been an altercation). That said I understand that one witnessed, these incidents can invoke genuine fears.

The begging on the trains is out of control, so I agree having the BTP number to hand is key (and using it). You can text, so its discreet.
If the BTP don't get on top of it, it will get worse and if people give, they will come in their droves - please don't!

Two rehearsed speeches on the trains - the one needing money to get into a hostel, and the period poverty one (a very real problem but still a rehearsed speech).

The reality is that giving money is counterproductive, even the charities state that you should not give to beggars as it does not help. Please give it to the charities, not to those on the street, or give warm drinks, (healthy) food, towels/tampons

Please also download the Streetlink Application to your mobile or use the website to report any issues https://www.streetlink.org.uk/

From the website:
"How does it work?
If you are concerned about someone you have seen sleeping rough in England or Wales, you can use this website to send an alert to StreetLink. The details you provide are sent to the local authority or outreach service for the area in which you have seen the person, to help them find the individual and connect them to support.
We ask you to provide the following information:
1) A specific location for the rough sleeping site. You can do this by using a map to pinpoint the exact location and then providing a written description of the location.
2) Details of the time that the rough sleeper has been seen at the location.
3) Any information about the rough sleeper that will help find them (gender, approximate age, what the person looks like, what they are wearing).
You will receive details of the action the local authority normally takes when they are told someone is sleeping rough in their area and an update on what has happened as a result of your alert within 10 working days if you have requested it"
vbsydenham
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by vbsydenham »

I agree with stuart and The Clown.

If you are seriously concerned about homelessness and destitution, try to do something that helps. Seeking to vilify these people on the basis of tabloid sensationalism and the poor behaviour of a minority is nothing short of bigotry.
John H
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by John H »

vbsydenham wrote:I agree with stuart and The Clown.

If you are seriously concerned about homelessness and destitution, try to do something that helps. Seeking to vilify these people on the basis of tabloid sensationalism and the poor behaviour of a minority is nothing short of bigotry.
Then you need to read back a few posts. This man is a persistent beggar who, in between his begging expeditions, turns up smartly dressed in an expensive car and does his shopping.
John H
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by John H »

stuart wrote:
John H wrote:You take your life in your hands when you travel by public transport nowadays.
Sphericals. Check the facts. It is one of the safest ways to travel ... why try and distort reality?

Stuart
and yet I have, personally, been attacked more than once on those trains and I know numerous other people who have.

Indeed I recall having a conversation with someone on here, a long time ago, who moved from the area because of this.
stuart
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by stuart »

John H wrote:
stuart wrote:
John H wrote:You take your life in your hands when you travel by public transport nowadays.
Sphericals. Check the facts. It is one of the safest ways to travel ... why try and distort reality?

Stuart
Yet I have, personally, been attacked more than once on those trains and I know numerous other people who have.
Interesting. I haven't been attacked/threatened in 47 years of TfL travelling. Nor my partner, nor any of my family including two daughters who regularly used to come back in the early hours on the 176. I don't know personally anybody who has.
Where we very lucky - or where you very unlucky?

Check out how many KSIs on the pavement or roads in London last year. And tell me how many of those were on public transport. Even going back 20 years how many public transport deaths were terrorists and how many were real or pretend vagrants. Then tell me which is the safest way to get from A to B in this city of ours.

I have been mugged on a bike [East Dulwich] and had something very similar to this in a car on Clapham Common:
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/16308 ... -dartford/

I have also been injured by a bad car driver on College Road. I get bullied by several almost every day.

But then I try not to rely on anecdotes when assessing risk. And yes I use the Overground at all times of the day and am as fed up with the fake begging as you are.

Stuart
noangel
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by noangel »

John H wrote:
stuart wrote:
John H wrote:You take your life in your hands when you travel by public transport nowadays.
Sphericals. Check the facts. It is one of the safest ways to travel ... why try and distort reality?

Stuart
and yet I have, personally, been attacked more than once on those trains and I know numerous other people who have.

Indeed I recall having a conversation with someone on here, a long time ago, who moved from the area because of this.
I've lived in Sydenham for over 10 years and have not been attacked or made to feel unsafe once; on the Overground nor on the night service of 176. The nature of my work means there are times I am on the last train home or the night bus.

I'm a regular at both Sainsbury's you've mentioned and have never seen these any beggars fitting your descriptions. There is the regular beggar outside the Sainsbury's Local and he is a very polite chap, always ready with a big smile. Someone is always with him having a chat and making sure he is okay. He doesn't bother anyone. I'm at the big Sainsbury's at least twice a week. I have seen beggars there but again they don't tend to approach shoppers and they are not there that often; security move them on quite quickly. I find it highly unusual for you, in particular, to notice this one beggar and his every movement when no-one else has seen him.

As for the beggars on the Overground, they are very annoying (especially the ones with the tissues) and I have seen a small minority yell abuse at passengers. I feel sorry for the man that got attacked at New Cross and wish him all the best.
John H
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by John H »

*John H: You take your life in your hands when you travel by public transport nowadays.

*Sphericals: Check the facts. It is one of the safest ways to travel ... why try and distort reality?

*John H: and yet I have, personally, been attacked more than once on those trains and I know numerous other people who have. Indeed I recall having a conversation with someone on here, a long time ago, who moved from the area because of this.

*noangel?: I've lived in Sydenham for over 10 years and have not been attacked or made to feel unsafe once; on the Overground nor on the night service of 176. The nature of my work means there are times I am on the last train home or the night bus.

I'm a regular at both Sainsbury's you've mentioned and have never seen these any beggars fitting your descriptions. There is the regular beggar outside the Sainsbury's Local and he is a very polite chap, always ready with a big smile. Someone is always with him having a chat and making sure he is okay. He doesn't bother anyone. I'm at the big Sainsbury's at least twice a week. I have seen beggars there but again they don't tend to approach shoppers and they are not there that often; security move them on quite quickly. I find it highly unusual for you, in particular, to notice this one beggar and his every movement when no-one else has seen him.

As for the beggars on the Overground, they are very annoying (especially the ones with the tissues) and I have seen a small minority yell abuse at passengers. I feel sorry for the man that got attacked at New Cross and wish him all the best.

*John H: No-one else has seen him? You mean YOU have not, or chose not, to see him.

I have lived in Sydenham for 30 years. There was a time when it seemed to be improving but in recent years we have seen a robbery at gunpoint, a drugs factory, a brothel, numerous robberies weekend raves, street walkers, street drug dealers... just in the street I live in. Walk around in blinkers if you please but do not expect them to save you when your number is up.

Read back a few of the threads on here. You are a newcomer. Indeed I am still regarded as a newcomer... Three decades on.

By the way... a beggar outside New Cross Sainsbury's inflicted the most terrible injuries on an acquaitance of mine... but that was not in Sydenham.
stuart
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by stuart »

John H wrote:*John H: You take your life in your hands when you travel by public transport nowadays.
So, again when challenged, no objective evidence? Only your anecdote outranks mine or noangel's?

Let's be absolutely clear on this. I can't remember anybody in Sydenham being killed by or on public transport. I can remember many people being killed in or by motor vehicles within a couple of streets from where I live.

You, in another thread, have advocated bigger roads into Sydenham which could only make the shortening of life through increased pollution more probable which is, in my view, rather more of a threat to our community than your con-artist in Sainsbury's car park.

Do you not perceive a disproportionate approach to risk of life by at least one of us?

Stuart
John H
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by John H »

stuart wrote:
John H wrote:*John H: You take your life in your hands when you travel by public transport nowadays.
So, again when challenged, no objective evidence? Only your anecdote outranks mine or noangel's?

Let's be absolutely clear on this. I can't remember anybody in Sydenham being killed by or on public transport. I can remember many people being killed in or by motor vehicles within a couple of streets from where I live.

You, in another thread, have advocated bigger roads into Sydenham which could only make the shortening of life through increased pollution more probable which is, in my view, rather more of a threat to our community than your con-artist in Sainsbury's car park.

Do you not perceive a disproportionate approach to risk of life by at least one of us?

Stuart
Please try to be accurate when attempting to quote me. I have not advocated "bigger" roads into Sydenham. I have advocated the pedestrianisation of Sydenham Road and improvement of roads that would bypass Sydenham.


Keep your personal attacks to yourself.
stuart
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by stuart »

John H wrote:Please try to be accurate when attempting to quote me. I have not advocated "bigger" roads into Sydenham. I have advocated the pedestrianisation of Sydenham Road and improvement of roads that would bypass Sydenham.

Keep your personal attacks to yourself.
I was referring to these statements. I apologise if I have misinterpreted them unfairly or appeared unduly personal:
John H wrote:Unless and until something is done to assist traffic flow there should be a total block on any development at Bell Green. Southend Lane needs to be made capable of accepting the traffic. That means a new wider, deeper under pass.

An overpass over the railway carrying a dual carriageway is essential. A complete redesign of the Bell Green area roads so that through traffic and local are separated would also seem appropriate.
https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... 27#p174527
https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... 17#p174217

Stuart
John H
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by John H »

stuart wrote:
John H wrote:Please try to be accurate when attempting to quote me. I have not advocated "bigger" roads into Sydenham. I have advocated the pedestrianisation of Sydenham Road and improvement of roads that would bypass Sydenham.

Keep your personal attacks to yourself.
I was referring to these statements. I apologise if I have misinterpreted them unfairly or appeared unduly personal:
John H wrote:Unless and until something is done to assist traffic flow there should be a total block on any development at Bell Green. Southend Lane needs to be made capable of accepting the traffic. That means a new wider, deeper under pass.

An overpass over the railway carrying a dual carriageway is essential. A complete redesign of the Bell Green area roads so that through traffic and local are separated would also seem appropriate.
https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... 27#p174527
https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic ... 17#p174217


Stuart
Your troll like repetition confirms my version of prior conversations. I advocated action to deal with congestion at a pinch point.
stuart
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by stuart »

:?
mosy
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by mosy »

If the thread has now turned to traffic pollution, then I agree with John H that if a whole new lot of traffic will be encouraged, or is likely, to visit Bell Green then it should be in the planning as to how it will be mitigated to avoid exacerbating clogging and tailbacks.

In another thread JGD (I think) looked at whether online delivery vans cut down on car pollution. I said I'd ask about typical deliveries a van makes. So, a grocery van said between 6 and 16 in a shift, depending on volume and proximity of drops. An Amazon driver said an average of 130 (110-140 even).

Stuart, if I may, I honestly don't think people will go on a push bike to carry home a weekly shop or big item generally, so it seems inevitable that the enlarged centre at Bell Green will bring in more cars whether we like it or not. I did suggest elsewhere that charging points for electric cars could or ought to be in the development. That should help, especially for two-car households where the runabout one would make sense to be electric.

Back on street begging, I ask why before I give (although not much in buying power terms). One recently said, Do you know you're the first person who's helped me all day. Think of that as good or bad as you each no doubt will. However, later that evening, I was struggling with something and a single person walked past by happenchance at that moment and volunteered to help. I don't know if it was karma but it's good to know that some people are still willing to help each other with no quid pro quo.
The Clown
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by The Clown »

http://www.ukcrimestats.com/Neighbourhood/8302

I think I’ll stick with what the crime stats are telling me on this one.
Sydenham’s not perfect - there is always room for improvement (and opportunity for people to be even nicer to each other), but there is no giant crime wave upon us.

Clearly Some have experienced some issues of late (eg Knighton Park Road) that have been very troubling.
Respectfully, I would suggest that this unfortunate experience has been rather emotive.

We do live close to a very busy road & Junctions where people frequently cross other than walk up to the crossings provided.

In my view there are really just a handful of criminals ruining it for the rest of us...
and....
whilst I am very aware of the social economic generators behind the problems...
I would still ask them to stop.

I like to think that the majority of people would want to do better for themselves and for their Community if they could and I would want to appeal to that side of them.

Also, I agree with Cressida Dick’s appeal to middle class drug users. Equally men who use prostitutes - If you remove the demand, you solve the problem.
The people using either “service” are the principal cause of the problem.
I would ask them also to please stop.
John H
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by John H »

Knighton Park Road is, in point of fact, one of the least crime ridden streets in Sydenham. Ask the local police. However the point of this thread was begging.
The Clown
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Re: Begging outside Sainsbury's local

Post by The Clown »

Glad to hear your problems are resolved
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