Penge moving ahead of Sydenham?

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Post by poppy »

Nasaroc, you seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder about Sydenham for some reason! Why do you live here?

I think there is lots of variation, of course, we are in zone three in London after all!!!

Maybe this is what your postcode is bringing up, but my particular, full postcode says (a snipet):

Often, many of the people who live in this sort of postcode will be older professionals living in suburban houses and apartments. These are known as type 14 in the ACORN classification and 1.48% of the UK’s population live in this type.

Neighbourhoods fitting this profile are well represented in Outer London (Bromley, Barnet and Kingston-upon- Thames) and Manchester (Trafford), Aberdeen, Stirling and Home County towns such as Guildford and St Albans. Here is an overview of the likely preferences and features of your neighbourhood:

Family income: high
Interest in current affairs: high
Housing with a mortgage: medium
Educated to degree lever: very high
Couples with children: medium
Have satellite TV: low

All the major broadsheets are read, and interests include fine arts and antiques, theatre and good food and wine. Eating out is also popular.

etc, etc

These are a few houses in Sydenham which share my postcode, and not every single house within that postcode will fit this description apparently, but it is the general demographic based on lots of different sources of information. There are also many, many other households in my road who are not in this specific postcode and in a neighbouring road which would fit this description also!

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Post by Eagle »

As I said Poppy you must reside in Hall Drive.

Robin Orton
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Post by Robin Orton »

No, she mustn't. My postcode produces the identical profile on upmystreet, and I don't live on Hall Drive.

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Post by Thomas »

One anecdotal measure of the social standing of an area is the attitue of pizza delivery companies. When I first moved round here about three years ago a local pizza delivery firm refused to deliver to me when I told them my postcode (I live near to a large council estate). That never happened when I lived (albeit briefly) in Kingston!

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Post by Eagle »

At least seems to have drifted away from Penge v Sydenham.
I would welcome Pizza delivery persons refusing to deliver, then the refuse would not be everywhere.

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Post by poppy »

Nasaroc, SE22 brings up the same profile as SE26, so individual postcodes give a much better picture of your immediate area it seems!

Eagle I don't live on Hall Drive unfortunatley, it is very nice...

I do know quite a few people sprinkled throughout Sydenham, and they mention neighbours and friends who live in other parts of Sydenham who would also fit my postcode profile and I also know of people who live in ex-local authority homes here would do too!!!

Going back to the high street, I do know that a couple of my elderly neighbours seem to shop in Penge frequently, particularly to the Sainsburys because it is smaller than the Sava Centre and less of an effort to negotiate....I think they are also put off the high street a bit too because it is so tatty...hopefully when it is tarted up it might appeal more to these people too.

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Post by Ulysses »

Eagle wrote:As I said Poppy you must reside in Hall Drive.
Good god Eagle [intentional use of lower case g] you need to get out more dear chap.

To deign for one moment that only Hall Drive enjoys the AB1 demographic in Upper Sydders is both short-sighted and simply wrong.

From memory you live in Derby Hill (shame, I'm sure, but if incorrect I apologise?) but to try and ascertain that a road flanked by two of the worst areas in all of Sydders (Sheenewood and Wells Park) is in any way desirable puts you in a very ignorant and bad light. Hall Drive is far from being the best road in Sydders. Although, not unattractive in it's own right.

Do you ever happen upon all of the fine, handsome, affluent streets in both Upper and Lower Sydders upon your travels? I get the impression you march from Forest Hill down Kirkdale and along LPR into Pong...perhaps you ought to broaden your horizons and 'sail on the currents' a tad more 'Eagle'?

Sydders has a great many rich and affluent, comfortable streets that are oft invaded by Ocado and John Lewis vans and the young professional types.
Last edited by Ulysses on 18 Apr 2009 07:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by parker »

You didnt read this Ulysses did you, i posted this a while back on the other thread.
Ulysses wrote:I'm really sorry if you think I am picking on you and your posts parker. I really am not. But I fail to see the significance of your points contained above.

You cite the relative affluence of those who live above the shops in Beckenham High St versus those who live in Adamsrill Road... surely this is "apples with pears" if ever I've seen it? How about you try and come up with some independent facts regarding London Borough versus London Borough or area versus area rather than street versus street?

I'm trying really hard to sensibly debate with you parker. But I'm not sure if you understand the nuances of how to go about it.

We are still at the original starting point of the following:

I have pointed out our Green Flag Park coverage. Our ommision from the most robust study ever done on 'rough' areas (neither LB figures on the 'best' list). The fact your feted wish-list area of LB Bromley and Beckenham receives continued National Press coverage for the brutality of it's incidents (teenage and gangland murders) - so regular and common place are they.

And you come back with a jumped up Estate Agents website to back up your claims that LB Bromley and Beckenham bests LB Lewisham and Sydenham...I have to really point out the obvious and ask why don't you move there? Are you really that resentful that you can only afford somewhere in Wells Park? Is it what you are immediately surrounded by that you object to?

It may be not be the most attractive local authority estate ever but I have never had cause to feel unsafe there - even late at night when I walk through it - I don't live there but have seen enough of it to form an opinion.

Come back to me with something based on National Office of Statisitics or from a recognised and respected Academic source such as UCL or a recognised independent body such as Green Park Flag Awards. I'll even accept PRISM lifestage or Mosaic or any of the accepted demographic incidence surveys.

I'm really sorry and I'm not attacking you but you are still passing off your own ignorant, poorly researched and baseless personal opinion as statement of fact regarding huge swathes of an area...

That's not how you even begin to debate my good man.
I see others on this thread using!!!
parker wrote:
Thomas wrote:I have various questions which I hope people can answer:

* Why have drugs offences more than doubled in the last year? This has happened in Lewisham as a whole, but Sydenham has seen a higher than average rise.

* Why have "other notifiable offences" declined so markedly year on year, both across Lewisham and in Sydenham?

* Why has robbery more than doubled in the last 12 months?
Why has "violence against the person" doubled?

* In many categories, crime in Sydenham is about, or above, the Lewisham average. Should we be concerned about this?
I cant be the only person thinking Sydenham/LBL has issues regarding crime.

The third links now shown below that wasnt quoted is the most sufficient and may explain the differences between Beckenham and Sydenham, how wrong can this data be? Other data would probably say something along the same lines as this.
Also if isnt enough, how about looking at this for a comparison of Sydenham and Beckenham

Sydenham ... eriod=year

Beckenham ... eriod=year

'Violence against the other person' 'Drugs Offences' and 'Robbery' are of a high growing concern for Sydenham residents more so than that of Beckenham. Where 'criminal damage' and 'sexual offences' are higher in Beckenham it is only less than a precentage difference of Sydenham's.

In regard to this i doubt night crime would be worse in Beckenham if Sydenham had the night time venues that Beckenham does. I also believe that the minority of issues of London Borough of Bromley in their urban areas are partly due to the lack of things to do in neighbouring boroughs like Lewisham, i.e Drunkenness in Beckenham night life and 'saff east landen' chavs in The Glades in Bromley. So what i am trying to say is that people from Lewisham contribute towards Bromley's crime statistics because they come into the area, hence this...
jmc wrote:This murder should not be associated wholly with Beckenham. It happened right on the border of Lewisham and Bromley. Nearly all the reports at the time said the murderers were a gang from Lewisham, who after the murder got onto a bus heading back to Lewisham (Catford?).
Famous last words

Ulysses wrote:Sydders has a great many rich and affluent, comfortable streets that are oft invaded by Ocado and John Lewis vans and the young professional types.

*Coughs* Beckenham!!!

Ulysses, Sydenham just doesnt add up with what you're painting it as, we have a long way to go before we can recognise this area to be anything like Kingston Upon Thames or Balham whether we live in Wells Park, Sheenewood or Hall Drive etc, like i say houseprices say it all. Look at this link and picture in your head Sydenham High Street and our non existent Waitrose which Balham and indeed Beckenham have access to.

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Post by Ulysses »

I did see the reply on the other thread parker.

I must admit I decided not to reply because as previously stated I think you're just trying to incite and have still to bring anything robust or worth debating to the table. I think it's pretty poor form to follow someone across threads to try and re-invigorate a thread that was largely being left to rot - it's tantamount to bullying, of sorts. Certainly it's not good form or acceptable etiquette.

But seeing as you've backed me into a corner somewhat...

Did you see last Friday's The Times? In it there was a league table of 'spend per pupil' by all the Local Councils in the U.K. Guess where Bromley came? 130th. One of the lowest spends per head of any council. Near the bottom of the class. Lewisham was somewhere like 8th top! Just behind Kensington & Chelsea. LBL spends about 8,000 per year compared with 3,500 for LBB...I don't have the article to hand but that was the general gist of it. Sorry if my figures or amounts are incorrect but I usually have a good memory for these things. What to read into that, eh parker? Lewisham is more affluent hence can spend more than Bromley. Or they simply apportion more of the available finances to can read it how you wish. I took it as a positive on LBL, I'm quite sure you will not.

Look, we get the fact that you don't like Sydenham and we get the fact that you would really rather live in the middle-class Utopia that is Beckenham (not true my friend, whether you like it or not - see, I've borrowed your phrase there!). I really don't intend this as personal but you have put your location down as Wells Park and more recently Sydenham Wells so perhaps this is clouding your view?

Now, I've previously posted that whilst the estate is not so easy on the eye it is not a place I have ever felt unsafe walking through, even late at night. There are a lot of good families there but I'll admit a fair few of the rotten apples are stored in that barrel also. I'm going to go out on a limb and state that I am sorry you seem so bitter about where you live. Perhaps when you are old enough to leave home or earn enough [or is it a case of both?] then you might be able to move to Beckenham, Balham or wherever. I say this as you seem to love exclamation marks and your phraseology puts me in mind adolescent? I'm not a syntax expert but it is how you come across. I apologise if I am wide of the mark.

Anyway, if I plumb my postcode in I get the same set of affluent results that Robin Orton and Poppy get. Funnily enough if I guess yours to be SE26 6JQ I get a very markedly different set of results. Do you really think that the Ocado/John Lewis/Abel & Cole vans that I see all the time on mine and the neighbouring streets aren't delivering here? What a bizarre and frankly wrong view you hold parker.

It has been debated long and hard on this forum regarding crime statistics...

Nasaroc and Bensonby made some great points about how the figures could be 'massaged' and you need to understand the underlying causes and contexts. Much in the way that the recently released ‘crime-mapping service’ would make Police Stations a 'hot-spot' as most crimes are actually reported there. You should read the thread. It's interesting and informative. ... 522dbef22d

Still, if you want to use upmystreet then it seems quite a few of us are 'doing alright' – we’re certainly not alone. There'll be many similar streets in Balham but to think that Balham will not have areas to avoid is simply untrue and tantamount to false hope. Again, it's been debated long and hard that often due to the workings of the GLC in the 50's and 60's under the auspices of 'slum clearances' all good and not so good areas have about 30% local authority. For example, do you think Fulham is nothing but hooray Henrys? Turn left out of West Brompton station and walk along Lille Road as I do on my way to Fulham FC and you'll get a shock. A long and big one as you walk past miles and miles of decaying tower blocks. You can say the same for anywhere. Do you think they bus the people in for the Notting Hill carnival or more realistically that they are local and resident? Take a look to your right as your cross the river on the train into Victoria and what do you see? A honking great never-ending row of almost Eastern-Bloc 'brutalist' L.A. blocks.

I am puzzled as to why you think Lewisham residents would have an adverse effect on Bromley figures. I often think to myself that the riff-raff that are in the ‘Two Half’s’ pub are bussed in from chavvy areas like Penge and Crystal Palace and that the middle-class families filling out the Dolphin are bussed in from Dulwich Village…then I get a bit of common sense and realise that in both cases everyone is very much local. Same with Bromley and Beckenham. I’m sorry to burst your bubble or offend your delicate sensibilities but 99.9% of trouble in LBB is caused by Bromley residents….same for LBL. To try and state otherwise is simply delusional

This leads me nicely onto a request. You keep on posting that the murderer of Ben Hitchcock got on the bus back to Catford. Please stop peddling lies. This is an open forum and I would hate to think that Lee Hitchcock [his Mother] would read your post. I’m not going to spoon-feed you (there’s that reference to your age again) but a little bit of research would go a long way. You have access to the internet so there’s no excuse for being ignorant of the facts.

I would like to suggest you take the tram from Beckenham to see many, many rather poor areas in the LB of Bromley and, shock horror for parker! Even in Beckenham itself. Perhaps you have done this before but kept your eyes shut so you wouldn’t have to realise that Beckenham and LB Bromley is not the Promised Land? Far, far from it my friend.

I appreciate this is rather long-winded. I have tried to keep my tone even but I cannot let you get away with ignorant and sweeping prejudice. To state (as you have) things like ‘we all feel safer in Beckenham than Sydenham’ or the ‘only nice bits of Sydenham are those that border Bromley’ is simply un-true. I haven’t got the quotes to hand so I apologise if I have not quoted you verbatim.

I am actually quite proud of where I live. I’m not trying to say it’s doesn’t have some ills but I’d suggest that reading your posts the problem may not be with Sydenham but with your misplaced opinion of it. You do seem rather bitter – which is a shame. I think your attitude probably taints your experience of living here and perhaps even gets you in a spot of bother? I can’t imagine your attitude would be overly welcome in Sydenham Wells?

I have written a lot but in the hope that this will be the last I write on the matter. Unless you can come up with something as robust as the earlier UCL survey I posted in the meantime? I shan’t be holding my breath and await more sweeping generalisations from you.

Anything basic like PRISM-lifestage or Mosaic etc (as I’ve stated previously would do). I don’t’ think ‘acorn’ is THAT robust but funnily enough it seems to get the right-ish result. Wouldn’t you say parker?

That result being whether you like it or not Sydders has a good many handsome streets with Boden-clad families living out happy, safe and comfortable lives. You may resist and rally against that fact but it doesn’t make it any less true.

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Post by Eagle »

Cannot believe the long replies. You guys certainly getting upset.

There are good and bad in both boroughs. The spend figures per child mentioned ( bromley less than half LBC ) surely cannot be correct. Such a huge difference. I would expect Lewisham pupils to be much better qualifies on leaving.

Cllr John Getgood
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Post by Cllr John Getgood »

I just wanted to add a bit about the education spend. Overall, Bromley borough is far more affluent than Lewisham and has a lower level of measured needs. For that reason, Lewisham attracts a far higher level of government grant. In Bromley, they only spend the amount that the government give as a grant on schools - and they use as much of that as they can for other associated purposes. (I should add that Bromley schools perform well on results.) Historically at least, other boroughs have given a higher value to education and spent above the government level. I don't know the current situation in Lewisham but the difference could well have something to do with that. The priority for the majority party in Bromley is to keep the council tax as the lowest in outer London. Add that to a low level of government grant and you are inevitably going to get a lower level of spend. My view is that although this policy may be adqaute for the more prosperous areas of Bromley, it does not allow Bromley to meet the full needs of many of its more vulnerable, needy, residents.

Hope that is helpful.

Cllr John Getgood
Penge & Cator

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Post by multisync »

That was well answered Ulysses I hope it puts Parker in his place changing his location from Wells Park to Syd Wells snob or what.How old do you think he is anyway? Maybe he should change his postcode!!

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Post by parker »

Excuse me 'Multisync' my location has never been Wells Park, it has always been Sydenham Wells thank you very much! Thats Ulysses' mind playing tricks thinking i live in Wells Park Estate therefore believing my location to be Wells Park before Sydenham Wells, the two of you are not so observant there are you and you can ask Admin if that change occured and i will bet you that that change doesnt exist.

For your information im 42, unfortunately not younger, why its an issue i do not know, i dont wonder what your'e ages are. And i am not a snob, i just have taste and want a better Sydenham and i would hope you do too, and blimey there is scope for that, incase theres any confusion, i mean Sydenham High Street in general.

Ulysses' comment wasnt well answered in my view multisync as the fact still stands that crime in Lewisham is higher than in Bromley, how can you both be any more diluded about this? Ulysses' has just danced around the argument as per usual by becoming personal about age/location and my alledged love for Beckenham etc, to overide with counter arguments the whole way through to divert away from the stats on the links of my post that appear candid which is probably why Ulysses didnt reply in the first place to my post. Also regarding Ulysses becoming personal, i read the way he talks to Eagle which i think is unaccepatable on here.

Also i dont hate Sydenham, please believe that, and it is far from being a bad place to live, i have a lot of loyalty to Sydenham, really i do and i know you both do too though i believe it can be a better place and this is what i am trying to get across. How can you both be so against everything i say and call be a snob and bitter gainst Sydenham when Sydenham clearly isnt what people would like it to be. It isnt yet one of those desirable places to live like Balham, kingston or where have you etc, and the houseprices will tell you that.

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Post by admin »

Gentlemen, gentlemen ... please no exchange of animosities. It just causes threads to go downhill leading to the unhelpful inquest as to who started it.

Working class people, snobs and all those in between are welcome in my book. My only request is that everyone welcomes everyone. Destroy the arguement if you wish but honour the person. If they really cannot be honoured its my problem not yours.


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Post by Eagle »

Thank you admin. Seems to be getting a bit personal.

I was surprised Parker is apologising for being 42. I , and hopefully many other members , are a lot older.

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Post by Annie »

Parker, Wish i was 42-----------Again :lol:

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Post by mikej »

If I may refocus this thread on the original topic, is this further evidence of Penge's rise compared to dear old Sydders?

"Not just a date for your diary – a genuine local issue. Can a Farmers’ market sustain itself in Penge? Saturday June 6th is the important date.

Thanks to the determination of local traders, a market is returning to Maple Rd. Bromley Council has licensed a Farmers’ market to operate initially for 6 months on Saturday mornings. There will be a mixture of fresh produce and crafts.

The market will launch at 10 am with a traditional ceremony. The Deputy Mayor of Bromley will cut the ribbon while wearing the impressive council chain from the old Penge Urban District Council. This is believed to be the first time the old chain has been used in an official ceremony since Penge was swallowed into the new Bromley borough in 1965. And there will be a Penge Town Crier for the ceremony.

Maple Road Market was established in 1921 when the country was recovering from World War I. It went from strength to strength over the years, with several generations of families providing Penge with cheap, quality goods. The nw market will hopefully be well placed to meet today’s needs.

So many people have been asking when a market is going to return to Maple Rd, it's hard to believe it's actually going to happen. Despite the ups and downs of Maple Road Market, people are looking forward to enjoying the market experience once again. As well as filling a local need, the market should attract new shoppers to Penge and help revitalise Maple Rd as well as Penge High Street. It can only be good for the area.

Cllr John Getgood
Penge & Cator"

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