Southern performance figures

[Barty]

On Thursday, almost 98% of Southern's services ran within 5 minutes of time.

This is the best performance figure for a weekday since the current franchise began.

So all you Southern-bashers...

[bensonby]

yes, but 4 minutes late is still pretty late....especially if you are only getting on a 12 minute train journey. It's increasing your journey time by a 1/3.

I have issue with "on time" meaning "within 5 mins" - especially on metro services.

Also, 2% of trains running more than 5 mins late is a very large number of trains. Considering they run thousands and thousands of services a year...


And I've just noticed.....That result is only on one day! Well done. They company have done what they are paid to do for once....

[richpickings]

I agree, 5 mins can be the difference between arriving on time or late for work / meeting. In the real world late is late whether it is five minutes or 25 minutes.

Whilst I am pleased at the improvement in Southern's performance it is not much comfort for those who have been late or missed a connection by two minutes.

Lets not accept mediocrity, but rather demand (and then celebrate) excellence.

[Barty]

yes, but 4 minutes late is still pretty late....especially if you are only getting on a 12 minute train journey. It's increasing your journey time by a 1/3.

You may have only been on the train for 12 minutes, but its complete journey from beginning to end is likely to have been rather longer.

I have issue with "on time" meaning "within 5 mins" - especially on metro services.

To expect every single train service to be on time at every station it calls at throughout its entire journey suggests a lack of knowledge of how a railway is run and how a minor event in one place for a few minutes can create delays over a wide area for a long period. Hence my mission to educate a small number of train travellers living in a little London suburb and visiting a local community webiste, in the hope that the word will spread!

.... it is not much comfort for those who have been late or missed a connection by two minutes.

Page 6 of the Great Britain Passenger Railway Timetable recommends a minimum connection time of five minutes at any station, so a connection time of three minutes is not actually a connection at all. This definition of what is actually a connection and what isn't has been in place since long before rail privatisation.

To be honest I would question the organisational or planning skills of anyone whose plans to be on time for work or an important meeting will stand or fall on a delay of two or three minutes with a train connection.

[Postman]

I get the first train some mornings which is never on time. It comes up on the screen delayed and then 10 minutes later it comes up again cancelled! Then everyone flees too the bus stops. Has made me late for work on many occassions!

[richpickings]

To be honest I would question the organisational or planning skills of anyone whose plans to be on time for work or an important meeting will stand or fall on a delay of two or three minutes with a train connection.

I totally agree - given the unreliable nature of the train service! ':lol:'

But seriously, I don't think it is too much to expect for a train service to run to the advertised times. The last train I can catch to get to work on time in the morning is the 8.51 to London Bridge, however because I know that it consistently runs late I never plan to catch it and always aim for an earlier train.

When we, as paying commuters, regularly experience delays it is a bit galling to hear the train companies telling us that they are delays that don't count because they are less than five mins. If I turn up to a meeting four mins late I don't say "I'm sorry you have all been sitting here waiting, but actually I'm not really late because I have turned up within five minutes of the agreed start time".

Barty - I'm not having a go. I am honestly really pleased that Southern are improving, but I agree with Bensonby that the measure for the service isn't that stringent for a metro service where trains arrive every ten mins in the morning and journey times are relatively short.

[Barty]

I get the first train some mornings which is never on time. It comes up on the screen delayed and then 10 minutes later it comes up again cancelled! Then everyone flees too the bus stops. Has made me late for work on many occassions!

I want to explain the kinds of reasons behind this sort of occurrence, cos it does happen quite a lot, and, from a customer's point of view, I know it's bloody annoying! (And I know, because when someone sees this go on, they press the Help Point to have a go, and answering that call is yours truly).

When a train is delayed on a journey and finishes up at its destination late, something must be done to rectify this. Otherwise that train is going to run late for every single journey it makes for the rest of the day, it's not going to be in the right place on the track at the right time delaying trains behind it, and the driver driving it is going to be in the wrong place when his shift finishes.

This process is called "service recovery", and Southern Control are the team that decides how service recovery is going to be carried out, and who pass that information onto my colleagues so we can give the information to passengers, by way of announcements, information screens, and help point enquiries.

So, Postman, in your scenario, you're waiting for a train, and the displays show it as ten minutes late. At this point, it may not even have started its journey from its origin station to you, but we know its gonna be late cos it has been late on the way to that point. So we'll display service ten mins late on the screens - the most up-to-date information we have at this point.

Control will now be thinking about service recovery. They want to make the train be on time again, and do that by inconveniencing the fewest number of passengers. They will usually, in this sort of situation, decide to make the train miss out a few stops that it should have made in order to catch up. These stops will be the best combination of stations with the fewest number of passengers or the most number of alternative services available.

So they pass this information to us, and we then update the screens. And someone's train has gone from being ten minutes late to being cancelled.

Someone then presses the help point and says "How come a minute ago my train was ten minutes late, and now its cancelled?"

What do I say? Do I attempt to spout the big long explanation I have just given above? Even if the person was more patient than incensed and actually listened to the whole thing, when I get to the bit where I am as good as saying, "Sorry, your station isn't important enough to stop the train there" they're gonna be incensed after that!!!

Then you get the people that accept that, but want to know "Is the next train going to be cancelled as well?" or the people that have seen this scenario before, and ask whether thee delayed train is going to be cancelled.

What do I say? Do I talk about Control's decision-making process and service recovery? Do I look and see that the train is currently on time, tell them that, then watch as it subsequently becomes delayed and wait for the person to press the help point again "You told me it was on time yadda yadda" Do I tell them that I left my crystal ball behind today?

I know you aren't all having a go at me! I am also not having a go back!! I just want you all to see that we are trying to pass on the most accurate information possible as and when we have it, and we are not only daling with your help point call and your screens at your station, we are probably also dealing with the same issues at all the other stations that Southern services call at.

[Barty]

I don't think it is too much to expect for a train service to run to the advertised times.

When you consider the multitude of events that can cause an individual train to run late (and by late, I mean your definition of late, as little as a minute or two) and when you consider that a fair proportion of those reasons are beyond Southern's control, I don't think it is reasonable to expect every single train to run to time at every single station it calls at!

And, given that, I think that 97.96% for a weekday punctuality figure on a day when there WAS some disruption shows that Southern's methods for handling disruption are improving, and are a great morale booster for staff at a company so often derided for its poor performance.

[Postman]

Im guessing that does make sence Barty. And by all means im not having ago at you. Im guessing they think nothing off Sydenham as its always does get cancelled and must stop at the ever so more popular stations like Forest Hill and Honor Oak. Is there no chance that if they know a train is going to be late at its final desination. They could put on another train to start the return journey, and keep the other train back? Or is this costing them money by adding another train to the tracks and costing a driver? Also can I claim my fares back if my train is cancelled, or even my first hour of pay that i risk losing when im late?

[bag lady]

Why is the first train late in the first place??

[Barty]

Is there no chance that if they know a train is going to be late at its final desination. They could put on another train to start the return journey, and keep the other train back?

Yes, of course. Southern Control can miraculously magic a train and a driver out of nowhere to suddenly appear at a station and run whilst the train that should have formed it and the driver that should have driven it turns up later!

Trains aren't like buses! It's easy to get a bus out of a garage, change the front to "Out of Service" and drive it straight to its origin point along whatever roads it will fit along and without it stopping anywhere. Its not so easy to do that over train tracks where places to overtake other trains are limited and you have to get around other trains that are already in service without causing them delays either.

Trains will often run fast between Norwood Junction to London Bridge missing out all stops. Sydenham is not singled out over Forest Hill or Honor Oak Park in the way you describe. And when you think about it, if a train is cancelled at Sydenham, how long is it before the next train to London Bridge comes? The Monday-Friday off peak service pattern is six per hour. If one is cancelled you do not wait any longer than 21 minutes. This is where Control's principle of service recovery is applied. Do you make someone wait a maximum of 21 minutes, or do you cancel a train at a station where the service is half-hourly, potentially making someone wait almost an hour?

Control do not operate in a Sydenham-centric universe. They have the rest of Southern passengers' needs to consider as well. This is hard for anyone at Sydenham station to hear - of course you are inconvenienced sitting there at Sydenham, we know. But we must inconvenience the least number of people for the least amount of time.

Why is the first train late in the first place??

For any of the multitude of reasons that any train can be delayed. Held up by another train. Signal failures (peoiple stealing signalling cable). Engineering work over-runs. Passengers all trying to cram into the first door so they don't have so far to walk at London Bridge. People / dogs / sheep / cows wandering around near / getting killed on live rails. Car drivers who think they can get past level crossing barriers before they shut. Lorry drivers who think they can get under bridges they can't. Bus drivers who forget they can't get a double decker under a low bridge. Passengers pulling the emergency cord / being taken ill on trains or stations / fighting / refusing to pay their fare................etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

[bensonby]

The funny thing is though that the japanese underground measures its annual late-ness in minutes lost. We could measure ours in years lost.


I also think people would be more sympathetic if Southern didn't take the piss with ticket prices quite so much.

i.e. by putting their fares up above inflation each year without a corresponding increase in the quality of service.

[Barty]

Is the japanese underground system privately owned or government-funded?

If you have the government of the world's 2nd-biggest economy throwing enough money at something, i'm sure it'll run to the minute.

Still....the "should we have privatised British Rail or not" can of worms is best left unopened, I think!

[Robin Orton]

Thanks for your very interesting and useful explanation, Barty. Have Southern themselves ever thought to offer this sort of information to their customers, e.g by putting posters up at stations?

Signal failures (peoiple stealing signalling cable).

I've often wondered why signals seem to fail so often, and usually guessed it's either because the equipment isn't properly maintained or because it's obsolete, clapped out or otherwise needs replacing. Are you saying that theft of cable is in fact the main reason? If so, is anything being done to prevent this happening?

[bensonby]

I've often wondered why signals seem to fail so often, and usually guessed it's either because the equipment isn't properly maintained or because it's obsolete, clapped out or otherwise needs replacing. Are you saying that theft of cable is in fact the main reason? If so, is anything being done to prevent this happening?

theft of copper cables has become an increasing problem in recent years.... I can't comment if its the "main" reason signals fail - but I'd imagine its more common than people would think.

[Barty]

Like Bensonby, I cannot confirm if it's the main reason for signal failures, but it is common - there was an incident on the line between Sittingbourne and Sheerness a few days back.

It is true that a fair proportion will be down to wear and tear. This of course being Network Rail's responsibility rather than Southern's - but as ever, any rail problems are perceived by the travelling public to be the fault of the train operator, whether they are or not.

As to the posters explaining this - would anyone read the explanations? Posters are usually displayed in the days after serious disruption - the last two occurences I can remember being the day when three fatalities in two days wrecked the service, and after the February snow. I feel that a very small minority of passengers would appreciate such a poster and explanation - most would be either fail to properly understand or simply not care about excuses, however valid. That's if they even noticed or read it.

[richpickings]

As to the posters explaining this - would anyone read the explanations?

We need something to do whilst we wait for the trains!

Thanks, Barty, for your continued insights as to how it all really works - it really is informative and does make one think about the bigger picture.

[Barty]

My mission, as ever, is to inform! Thanks for the thanks!

[Postman]

So they cancel my morning 05:24 train to london bridge and the next one is 05:58. That only 34 minutes plus my journey time, that im late for work! So thats nearly an hour late! Im sure if i told my boss how you have describe the way the trains work barty he'd understand and would have no problem at all with me being an hour late every morning!

[Barty]

So they cancel my morning 05:24 train to london bridge and the next one is 05:58. That only 34 minutes plus my journey time, that im late for work! So thats nearly an hour late! Im sure if i told my boss how you have describe the way the trains work barty he'd understand and would have no problem at all with me being an hour late every morning!

EVERY morning?

And how are you an hour late for work if the 0524 is cancelled when another train comes 34 minutes later?

If this happens to you again, walk down the road and catch a 75 to Norwood Junction. Fast services to London Bridge call there. Might be quicker for you to get to London Bridge.