Direct Trains to and From Charing Cross to be axed
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Robin Orton
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: 9 Sep 2008 07:30
- Location: London SE26
So what does that mean for services in the opposite direction? Does that mean we are losing/cutting down the sutton route?nasaroc wrote:2. In May 2010 our off-peak services to LB will be cut from 6 to 4 tph but the loop service to Victoria will be retained and will start earlier around 7am. Our twice hourly service to E Croydon will continue even when services are cut to 4 trains per hour. Peak hours services to and from LB will continue at 6 tph.
Yes - there will be no through trains to Sutton. But there will be four (ELL) trains per hour to W Croydon and 1 (Southern) train per hour to E Croydon. There are regular services from both EC and WC to Sutton.
After June 2010, we will find that "long distance" trains coming from and going to destinations to the south of Croydon will be a thing of the past - and that is to be warmly welcomed.
It will mean that local Sydenham and FH passengers from urban London will not find their trains packed out with "long distance" commuters, particularly during rush hours.
After June 2010, we will find that "long distance" trains coming from and going to destinations to the south of Croydon will be a thing of the past - and that is to be warmly welcomed.
It will mean that local Sydenham and FH passengers from urban London will not find their trains packed out with "long distance" commuters, particularly during rush hours.
and with these cuts I can't see, really, how the new LO service can be particularly welcome.....
Surely the vast majority of people would rather have 6 trains an hour to central London, trains to sutton and half-hourly trains to east croydon and the late night/early morning trains to Charing X. Than lots of trains to East London and fewer trains to central london, only hourly trains to E croydon and no trains to sutton and none to Charing X?
Surely the vast majority of people would rather have 6 trains an hour to central London, trains to sutton and half-hourly trains to east croydon and the late night/early morning trains to Charing X. Than lots of trains to East London and fewer trains to central london, only hourly trains to E croydon and no trains to sutton and none to Charing X?
What are your sources for this future timetable information? Nobody at work can confirm or deny anything to me at this point.nasaroc wrote:Yes - there will be no through trains to Sutton. But there will be four (ELL) trains per hour to W Croydon and 1 (Southern) train per hour to E Croydon. There are regular services from both EC and WC to Sutton.
And what is your source for current timetable information? I don't know of a direct service between East Croydon and Sutton now and I've been with Southern for a year.
Not by anyone travelling anywhere south of here other than to ELL destinations, who will probably have to make an additional change at Norwood Junction to get to East Croydon, and then at East Croydon as well to get anywhere on the south coast.nasaroc wrote:After June 2010, we will find that "long distance" trains coming from and going to destinations to the south of Croydon will be a thing of the past - and that is to be warmly welcomed.
To restrict journey opportunities from this area to East Croydon, which, aside from the main London termini is one of the 5 busiest stations in the country, seems illogical.
Interesting. Thanks for the information Nasaroc. It's good to have some information about the changes even if it's not all good news.
It's hard to imagine exactly how the changes will impact the journey. As someone who regularly uses one of those 6 trains an hour it would be a shame to see a third of them go. On the other hand, I welcome the thought of more space on the trains. That's got to be even better news for those travelling from Forest Hill and above in the rush hours.
Out of interest, does anyone know how long it might take to travel from Sydenham to say Whitechapel on the new Overground? If it's comparable to getting to London Bridge now, the options for commuting to the City could even be a net improvement.
It's hard to imagine exactly how the changes will impact the journey. As someone who regularly uses one of those 6 trains an hour it would be a shame to see a third of them go. On the other hand, I welcome the thought of more space on the trains. That's got to be even better news for those travelling from Forest Hill and above in the rush hours.
Out of interest, does anyone know how long it might take to travel from Sydenham to say Whitechapel on the new Overground? If it's comparable to getting to London Bridge now, the options for commuting to the City could even be a net improvement.
My deepest apologies Bensonby - I should, of course, have said two trains per hour to EC (not one) and four to WC. This is a slip up on my part and is in no way a reflection of the very accurate information supplied to me by senior managers at Southern and TfL when I met with them.
In other words, there will be no cuts in our current services to either East or West Croydon. In fact, during the peak period when 6 trains per hour are running, we will have an extra two trains ph running to either East or West Croydon. I've asked Southern to confirm exactly where these trains will terminate and will let you know when this information is available.
In other words, there will be no cuts in our current services to either East or West Croydon. In fact, during the peak period when 6 trains per hour are running, we will have an extra two trains ph running to either East or West Croydon. I've asked Southern to confirm exactly where these trains will terminate and will let you know when this information is available.
OIN - here are journey times heading north on the new East London from Sydenham:
Sydenham to FH - 3minutes
FH to HHP - 2 minutes
HHP to Brockley - 3 minutes
Brockley -to NX Gate - 2 minutes
NX Gate to Surrey Quays - 4 minutes
Surrey Quays to Canada Water - 2 minutes
Canada Water to Rotherhithe - 1 minute
Rotherhithe to Wapping - 2 minutes
Wapping to Shadwell - 2 minutes
Shadwell to Whitechapel - 2mins
Whitechapel to Shoreditch High St - 2 minutes
SHS to Hoxton - 2 minutes
Hoxton to Haggerston - 2 minutes
Haggerston to Dalston Jct - 3 minutes
So the answer to your question - How long will it take from Sydenham to Whitechapel - is 23 minutes. Shoreditch High Street - a dedicated new station a few hundred metres from Broadgate - journey time is 25 minutes.
The ELL isn't for every rail commuter. But if you work in these parts of the city it sure beats travelling through LB!
Sydenham to FH - 3minutes
FH to HHP - 2 minutes
HHP to Brockley - 3 minutes
Brockley -to NX Gate - 2 minutes
NX Gate to Surrey Quays - 4 minutes
Surrey Quays to Canada Water - 2 minutes
Canada Water to Rotherhithe - 1 minute
Rotherhithe to Wapping - 2 minutes
Wapping to Shadwell - 2 minutes
Shadwell to Whitechapel - 2mins
Whitechapel to Shoreditch High St - 2 minutes
SHS to Hoxton - 2 minutes
Hoxton to Haggerston - 2 minutes
Haggerston to Dalston Jct - 3 minutes
So the answer to your question - How long will it take from Sydenham to Whitechapel - is 23 minutes. Shoreditch High Street - a dedicated new station a few hundred metres from Broadgate - journey time is 25 minutes.
The ELL isn't for every rail commuter. But if you work in these parts of the city it sure beats travelling through LB!
Last edited by nasaroc on 21 Aug 2009 13:35, edited 1 time in total.
That sounds rather better, I suppose if there is still a regular service from Norwood Junction/West Croydon to Sutton then we'll not lose too much.nasaroc wrote:My deepest apologies Bensonby - I should, of course, have said two trains per hour to EC (not one) and four to WC. This is a slip up on my part and is in no way a reflection of the very accurate information supplied to me by senior managers at Southern and TfL when I met with them.
Does this mean that there will be no Southern trains to West Croydon? (the 4 off-peak trains an hour to LB being services from East Croydon and Victoria?)
And you are quite correct, if you work in the Broadgate part of the city then the new LO will be a massive boon.
Hi
Glad to see that the 2ph to E Croydon will remain - although like the majority on here, I'm very disappointed that we may lose our Waterloo/Charing X direct trains.
Quick question on the ELL though: Nasoroc's timetable above doesn't include Shadwell station? Is that just an omission or will the ELL not connect with the DLR (and if it does, does anyone know whether the ELL and DLR will be more integrated than the 'current' exit the station, cross the road and walk up flights of stairs link..!?).
Ta
Gaz
Glad to see that the 2ph to E Croydon will remain - although like the majority on here, I'm very disappointed that we may lose our Waterloo/Charing X direct trains.
Quick question on the ELL though: Nasoroc's timetable above doesn't include Shadwell station? Is that just an omission or will the ELL not connect with the DLR (and if it does, does anyone know whether the ELL and DLR will be more integrated than the 'current' exit the station, cross the road and walk up flights of stairs link..!?).
Ta
Gaz
No reason why Shadwell has been omitted except my incompetence. I've now edited this. Thank you Gaz. Glad to see someone's paying attention!
Bensonby - I am just waiting to hear from Southern where the two extra trains per hour heading south during the peak are going to end up - East or West Croydon. If it's West Croydon then we have 6 trains to WC during the peak - four ELL trains and two Southern. If it's to EC (which I hope it is!) we have only four tph to WC - all of them ELL trains but we have four (all Southern trains) to EC during the peak.
Meanwhile, Southern have confirmed that the twice hourly loop line to Victoria will commence at "around 7am" from May 2010 which is good news. In addition, of course, there will also be 4 ELL trains per hour travelling to Crystal Palace from early in the morning. So if you have missed a direct Victoria service it will be possible to travel up to CP on the ELL and change to a Victoria-bound train on platform one at CP. A new ELL platform is being built on platforms 3/4 at CP which will make linking up with trains between Norwood Jct and Victoria fairly easy.
If you look at the link below , you'll recognise the location of the new CP platform.
http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com ... round.html
Bensonby - I am just waiting to hear from Southern where the two extra trains per hour heading south during the peak are going to end up - East or West Croydon. If it's West Croydon then we have 6 trains to WC during the peak - four ELL trains and two Southern. If it's to EC (which I hope it is!) we have only four tph to WC - all of them ELL trains but we have four (all Southern trains) to EC during the peak.
Meanwhile, Southern have confirmed that the twice hourly loop line to Victoria will commence at "around 7am" from May 2010 which is good news. In addition, of course, there will also be 4 ELL trains per hour travelling to Crystal Palace from early in the morning. So if you have missed a direct Victoria service it will be possible to travel up to CP on the ELL and change to a Victoria-bound train on platform one at CP. A new ELL platform is being built on platforms 3/4 at CP which will make linking up with trains between Norwood Jct and Victoria fairly easy.
If you look at the link below , you'll recognise the location of the new CP platform.
http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com ... round.html
I am finding it difficult to follow exactly what the changes will be, but my main concern is that the frequency of trains to LB from Syd stays exactly as it is, all day!
The peak time might be of more concern to some of you but it is the high frequency of trains off-peak which makes our route to London Bridge so darn brilliant. They run, generally, at 10 minute intervals throughout the day, so no need for timetables at all, almost like a tube train.
We really do not want to lose this!
I did say a couple of years ago, on this forum, that I would rather have no ELL than have any cuts to our current service. It is really easy to get to Shoreditch etc by bus from LB anyway, it only takes a few minutes and they are really frequent, every couple of minutes!
I have really failed to see the point of this extension at all!
(I am sure some of you will put me right on this, and I am willing to hear your arguments, in the hope that it will make this whole business seem worthwhile)
The peak time might be of more concern to some of you but it is the high frequency of trains off-peak which makes our route to London Bridge so darn brilliant. They run, generally, at 10 minute intervals throughout the day, so no need for timetables at all, almost like a tube train.
We really do not want to lose this!
I did say a couple of years ago, on this forum, that I would rather have no ELL than have any cuts to our current service. It is really easy to get to Shoreditch etc by bus from LB anyway, it only takes a few minutes and they are really frequent, every couple of minutes!
I have really failed to see the point of this extension at all!
(I am sure some of you will put me right on this, and I am willing to hear your arguments, in the hope that it will make this whole business seem worthwhile)
Poppy - agree with you entirely about the need to preserve our off-peak services to London Bridge - so hope to see you at the meeting on the 17th September, 7.30pm at the Naborhood Centre to discuss this issue.
But I'm surprised to find someone still arguing that the new East London Line is "pointless".
Figures from Transport For London indicate that approx one third of locals will immediately swap from the LB line to the ELL as the quickest and most efficient means of getting to work - figures, incidentally confirmed by the survey carried out two years ago by the FH and Sydenham Societies. Within two years, more than half of locals will use the service as their first preference as work and living patterns change to make use of the new link.
Take the example you mention above. Of course, it is possible to take a train to LB and then use a bus to get to Shoreditch High Street. But that journey will take you virtually twice as long as the new ELL and will involve a busy change at London Bridge. We can all think of a (usually slower )alternative of how to get to a destination - it's ease of access and speed that counts, and that's what the ELL is helping to bring.
Of course, the new ELL isn't for everyone. If you want to travel to the LB or Charing Cross areas, use the existing LB line; if you want to travel to SW London, try the "loop" line.
Then, of course, there are the economic regeneration arguments. The ELL gives better access to the northern City and Canary Wharf - and plugs us directly into the underground network for the first time allowing faster journeys west and east. Sydenham will at last appear on the tube map! What better way to help regenerate our area?
But I'm surprised to find someone still arguing that the new East London Line is "pointless".
Figures from Transport For London indicate that approx one third of locals will immediately swap from the LB line to the ELL as the quickest and most efficient means of getting to work - figures, incidentally confirmed by the survey carried out two years ago by the FH and Sydenham Societies. Within two years, more than half of locals will use the service as their first preference as work and living patterns change to make use of the new link.
Take the example you mention above. Of course, it is possible to take a train to LB and then use a bus to get to Shoreditch High Street. But that journey will take you virtually twice as long as the new ELL and will involve a busy change at London Bridge. We can all think of a (usually slower )alternative of how to get to a destination - it's ease of access and speed that counts, and that's what the ELL is helping to bring.
Of course, the new ELL isn't for everyone. If you want to travel to the LB or Charing Cross areas, use the existing LB line; if you want to travel to SW London, try the "loop" line.
Then, of course, there are the economic regeneration arguments. The ELL gives better access to the northern City and Canary Wharf - and plugs us directly into the underground network for the first time allowing faster journeys west and east. Sydenham will at last appear on the tube map! What better way to help regenerate our area?
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commonsense
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 2 Jan 2009 18:10
- Location: parkside
I do not understand the assumption that all passengers from Sydenham wish to get to the City/East London. From my own experience, the number of people transferring from London Bridge to get to Charing Cross would seem to indicate that money would have been better spent on improving access in and ,probably more importantly, out of the West End.
I worked in the West End for years and daily had to do the transfer to Platform 6 - not so bad in the morning but, if you had to work late, standing at the end of Platform 13/14 waiting to come home was quite intimidating sometimes - my boss's journey from Sevenoaks to Charing Cross took less time than my daily commute.
I have lived in Sydenham for many years and one of the great advantages used to be the access to Charing Cross, which I and my family used on a regular basis. If the out of rush hour service is discontinued, I can only see that this area will be even more isolated and less likely to benefit for the 'improvments' that I have been hearing about for years but have yet to see being implemented - is there an agenda here? cheap housing perhaps?
As a single pensioner I find London Bridge Station after about 7 pm a place I would rather not have to negotiate so, therefore I do not go there..
Thefore I do not go into town, therefore I do not see friends, therefore I stay indoors.....
Why would I want to go to Shoreditch?? Why would anyone from Shoreditch want to come to Sydenham- why would ANYONE want to come to Sydenham?
Any sensible answers would be interesting
I worked in the West End for years and daily had to do the transfer to Platform 6 - not so bad in the morning but, if you had to work late, standing at the end of Platform 13/14 waiting to come home was quite intimidating sometimes - my boss's journey from Sevenoaks to Charing Cross took less time than my daily commute.
I have lived in Sydenham for many years and one of the great advantages used to be the access to Charing Cross, which I and my family used on a regular basis. If the out of rush hour service is discontinued, I can only see that this area will be even more isolated and less likely to benefit for the 'improvments' that I have been hearing about for years but have yet to see being implemented - is there an agenda here? cheap housing perhaps?
As a single pensioner I find London Bridge Station after about 7 pm a place I would rather not have to negotiate so, therefore I do not go there..
Thefore I do not go into town, therefore I do not see friends, therefore I stay indoors.....
Why would I want to go to Shoreditch?? Why would anyone from Shoreditch want to come to Sydenham- why would ANYONE want to come to Sydenham?
Any sensible answers would be interesting
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chrisj1948
- Posts: 537
- Joined: 15 Jul 2008 15:12
- Location: Sydenham
We moved to Sydenham from Chigwell a couple of years ago. Friends and family still live in East London. For us the ELL will be really useful. Actually, compared with Chigwell, Sydenham is a public transportation paradise; one of the reasons we moved here.commonsense wrote:Why would I want to go to Shoreditch?? Why would anyone from Shoreditch want to come to Sydenham- why would ANYONE want to come to Sydenham?
Regards
Chris
There isn't an assumption built into the new timetable that the City or East End will be favoured more than our existing route into LB. During the rush hours, trains to and from LB will still have the capacity to carry more passengers than the ELL. And from 2012, we will have 10 and 12 carriage trains running on all trains heading for LB. Plus, from 2015, 4 out of 6 rush hour trains will travel from LB along the Thameslink route. The LB route isn't being downgraded.
Commonsense - you and I may not see any reason to travel to Shoreditch but many of our local community will spot the advantages, particularly for work. Shoreditch High Street station is in the centre of an district full of offices. 30,000 people are employed in Broadgate which lies a couple of hundred metres from the new station. Aren't jobs, and easy access to them, important to our locality?
I agree with you that hanging about at London Bridge station in the late evening is not pleasant - but it isn't dangerous. There are remarkably few incidents at the station. Indeed, there are few incidents on our line as a whole but where they do happen is around local stations. In order to combat this we will have full-time staffing at Sydenham and FH stations while trains are running, gates at both entrances and Oystercards. TfL claim that they will insist that ticket offices at local stations are closed at around 8pm and that staff will instead be required to patrol the platforms. Why don't you come along to the meeting on the 17th and challenge the TfL speaker on the new regime for station staffing?
The loss of late night Charing Cross trains represents something that we should oppose vehemently. But to claim that the overall new timetabling means that "this area will be even more isolated" and become an economic backwater is surely overstating your case!
Commonsense - you and I may not see any reason to travel to Shoreditch but many of our local community will spot the advantages, particularly for work. Shoreditch High Street station is in the centre of an district full of offices. 30,000 people are employed in Broadgate which lies a couple of hundred metres from the new station. Aren't jobs, and easy access to them, important to our locality?
I agree with you that hanging about at London Bridge station in the late evening is not pleasant - but it isn't dangerous. There are remarkably few incidents at the station. Indeed, there are few incidents on our line as a whole but where they do happen is around local stations. In order to combat this we will have full-time staffing at Sydenham and FH stations while trains are running, gates at both entrances and Oystercards. TfL claim that they will insist that ticket offices at local stations are closed at around 8pm and that staff will instead be required to patrol the platforms. Why don't you come along to the meeting on the 17th and challenge the TfL speaker on the new regime for station staffing?
The loss of late night Charing Cross trains represents something that we should oppose vehemently. But to claim that the overall new timetabling means that "this area will be even more isolated" and become an economic backwater is surely overstating your case!