New “shop” on Sydenham Road

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Robin Orton
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by Robin Orton »

Thank you for reminding me of Godwin's Law, Lee. Whether it was the Jehovah's Witnesses or 'Syd' (in his/her posting) who were making use of it remains for me an open question!

Incidentally, what is your evidence for saying that Hitler was religious? I've had a quick look at Ian Kershaw's authoritative biography, but all I can find is that a. he was a vegetarian b. that he believed in astrology and c. that he declared in 1937 that 'Christianity was ripe for destruction.'

I can understand your antipathy to the JWs because of your family history.But I'm afraid that one of the things which characterizes many if not most religious people (I suppose I'm thinking mainly Christians and Muslims) is that they have a tendency to proselytize, that is, to try and convince other people of the truth of their belief and invite them to share it.The only way to stop them doing this is to make trying to convert people to a religious belief illegal - something which has of course been tried from time to time and still is in some countries.

The reason religious people want to proselytize is that they think religious truth is important in a way that other kinds of truth aren't. It really matters, they claim, whether you believe in God, and what you believe she is like, because these beliefs will determine your eternal destiny, your happiness in this world and the next. They want to convert you because they want you to be happy and to go to heaven. But , as I have said, to invite them politely to get lost - for example, if you're perfectly happy as you are or don't believe you have an eternal destiny - is your privilege.
Last edited by Robin Orton on 1 Mar 2011 17:47, edited 1 time in total.
leenewham
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by leenewham »

Interesting point Robin, I used to post many years ago on the Myspace forums (I ran the graphic design forum there before myspace became the non entity it is today).

There were some very right wing United Statians there and some were, unbelievably, praising Hitler. Partly because he was against communism. After doing a bit of researching I found some quotes that suggest he was religious. Although some quotes suggested that he saw himself almost as a god himself. I don't put much credence in it and I don't think it reflects on whatever religion it was supposed to be. As you rightly point out, from time to time 'he' seems to have used rather conflicting language.
Rachael
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by Rachael »

Robin Orton wrote: They want to convert you because they want you to be happy and to go to heaven.
Is that really why people try to convert other people? Or is it because they are told that converting people to their religion will help them get into heaven? The only person bothered by my atheism was my Catholic mother - she feared for my soul, but then she loved me and didn't want me to burn in hell. Why does it matter to people who are strangers to me whether or not I go to heaven, unless there is something in it for them?
mummycat
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by mummycat »

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Last edited by mummycat on 17 Jul 2011 21:53, edited 2 times in total.
Hill Dweller
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by Hill Dweller »

I've never heard that Hitler was religious or practising although he was born Catholic, never renounced it and has never been excommunicated.

Un-flipping-believable :|
Robin Orton
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by Robin Orton »

Why does it matter to people who are strangers to me whether or not I go to heaven, unless there is something in it for them?
I suppose in a way 'Mummycat' might have answered that question, Dr D.:
The reason that Witnesses try their hardest to convert others is because from an early age they are taught compassion for the human race.
The idea that believers are motivated by the prospect of 'pie in the sky when you die', on a selfish and utilitarian calculation, is, I suspect, an oversimplification. I'm not saying that Christians (the only religious group I have first hand experience of) don't want to go to heaven. But what is 'in it for them' is not free beer and 1000 virgins (or whatever your taste is in these matters) but to be with God. And the reason they want to be with God is because they love, or aspire to love, him/ her, in the same way that we all want to be with people we love. And they know (because this is what Christianity teaches about God) that you can only love God if you love other people as well; so they try to do that.

However. Sorry, 'Admin'. Now, about this new 'shop' at 177 Sydenham Road...
simon
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by simon »

Yes Robin, I appear to have opened a bit of a can of worms with my OP. I don't really have a view on religion but the shop is at the end of my road and I'm worried about parking on a Sunday.
Hill Dweller
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by Hill Dweller »

Which Sunday? :mrgreen:
paultreacy
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by paultreacy »

Religious people do not have a monopoly on compassion for humankind. I'm quite sure that many of them think they do.

My wife and I spent a few weeks travelling with my uncle in Kenya where he has been a missionary priest since the early 60's. On the last night of our stay he finally brought up the subject of my wife's and my atheism. He could not understand how we too are hugely compassionate towards our fellow humans and for the planet generally without being religious. I was astounded, quite frankly. I think compassion is part of our human nature. We're hard wired that way. In fact, not having a religious faith fuels our compassion and environmentalism in that it's up to humankind to look after each other and our planet and that this god thingy/notion serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever. It's a distraction. It's the other way around, humans created God.

I really get quite annoyed when I see young people get so caught up in religion. It's a waste of mental energy and youthful vitality. All that creative, intellectual power just wasted on fictitious rubbish. Just imagine what could be achieved if that mental capacity was applied more purposefully and practically.

The BBC's Horizon program last evening was fascinating. It was exploring whether or not we humans are still evolving. It appears that we are, despite our ability to adjust our environments to suit our needs rather than evolving to adapt to our environments. I only wish that we could evolve beyond religion. As I've said before, it's holding us back. Let's be rid of it. It's a scourge on humanity, quite frankly. Absolute truth ME ARSE!
Tim Lund
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by Tim Lund »

Sadly, paid-for work has got in the way of my making many contributions lately, and I'm not sure if that I have time to expand on the nuances of my religious views - or lack thereof. Even less might readers of this Forum have time for them ... but to get back to the OP - do they actually have planning permission? Do they need it? From a search on the Lewisham planning portal http://acolnet.lewisham.gov.uk/LEWIS-XS ... .pgesearch it seems the answer to the first is "No", and from my understanding of planning classes http://www.planning-applications.co.uk/ ... lasses.htm the answer to the second is "Yes". On the face of it, this would seem a better use of enforcement officers' time than, oh, I don't know, going after George at Kente - see http://forum.sydenham.org.uk/viewtopic. ... 25&p=42625. I wonder if Cllr Chris Best has a view on this?
Robin Orton
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by Robin Orton »

Before this thread finally reverts to the much more pressing issue of local planning procedures and their application to 177 Sydenham Road, I'd like to respond briefly to Paul Treacy. I agree with him that compassion is hard-wired into human beings; if, as all the Abrahamic faiths teach, human being are created by God (and, indeed, in his/her image) and God rates compassion very highly, that's what you'd expect. But does he therefore think that cruelty and infidelity and paedophilia (make your own list of nasty behaviour) are also hard-wired into us? From what he says about evolution, I expect his answer will be yes. He appears to think that Darwinian natural selection gives an exhaustive account of - tells us all we need to know about - the origins of human virtue, vice, love, hate, hope, despair, sense of beauty and wonder, art, science etc etc. All religious people would find that conclusion unacceptable, I think.

On a personal note, Paul, I was alarmed by the cry of pain at the end of your posting. I'm so sorry to hear about your problems with yer arse. There are ointments you can buy, I'm told.
syd
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by syd »

Robin Orton wrote:
I thought Hitler was dead. When did they call on him and was it in Sydenham?
I believe that the Nazi regime persecuted Jehovah's Witnesses, Lee, and that many of them died in the camps. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutio ... zi_Germany

I'm not sure why 'Syd' seems to hold this against them.
I didn't make myself clear. I was being compared to hiltler by 2 strangers cause I said I was ok. But thanks for reminding me why I don't post on forums
Hill Dweller
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by Hill Dweller »

I don't think the two JWs were actually comparing you to hitler Syd; I don't suppose their 'job' is easy and some must be so taken aback when anyone actually answers the door to them that wits take time to catch up.

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It is a shame imhoo that humans ascribe credit and blame to the wrong places. Great works come from great people and sin should also be owned, not blamed on a fictional devil.


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Robin Orton
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by Robin Orton »

Sorry, 'Syd'. My fault, lack of imagination - I should have been able to guess what you meant. I'd be sorry if my mistake deterred you from continuing to post on this forum.

I agree with you, 'Hill Dweller' - we shouldn't blame sin on the devil (whether fictional or otherwise). It's always our choice.
syd
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by syd »

Hill Dweller wrote:I don't think the two JWs were actually comparing you to hitler Syd; I don't suppose their 'job' is easy and some must be so taken aback when anyone actually answers the door to them that wits take time to catch up.

------------------

It is a shame imhoo that humans ascribe credit and blame to the wrong places. Great works come from great people and sin should also be owned, not blamed on a fictional devil.


.
Actually you're wrong I was being compared to hiltler her words were when I said I was ok was"hitler thought the same thing".
Hill Dweller
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by Hill Dweller »

Grouping people for one shared 'quality' is not comparing them.


However, if victimhood's your thang, carry on :?
simon
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by simon »

I received a flyer through my door tonight from the Mountain of Fire & Miracles Ministries inviting me to worship with them at “Church Services”, specifically a Sunday Worship Service 9.00 am – 12.30 pm. They are offering counselling on Thursdays between 4.00 pm and 6.00 pm, followed by Bible Studies & Revival Hour till 9.00 pm.

I don’t see a lot of retail there so I assume their change of use has been granted.
Tim Lund
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by Tim Lund »

Simon:

I suspect you have also looked this up on the Lewisham Planning site and found nothing. There isn't actually a category 'change of use' to search by, but I found another change of use - for 106 Newlands Park SE26 to a place of worship (Use Class D1), which counts as 'Full Planning Permission' - submitted August last year, refused in December, but currently being appealed against http://acolnet.lewisham.gov.uk/LEWIS-XS ... mkey=60981

It seems a fairly clear case where the planning system has become a dead letter, and policy depends crucially on how the very limited resources of the enforcement team - I was told currently just 1 1/2 staff - are allocated. The ideal of the planning system - which I support - is that there is a set of rules and a process for making decisions which are accessible to all. If it works - which it can - it becomes a way power is fairly and transparently decentralised. Understanding the planning system as it should work is not that difficult - Tony Burton, the director of Civic Voice, which the Sydenham Society is a member of, said at a meeting you attended last year that understanding planning was actually easier than getting a PC to work, which may be an exaggeration, but I accept the point.

As well as getting an enforcement officer down to deal with then Mountain of Fire & Miracles Ministries, which really should be done in fairness to Life Changing Ministry International, who play by the rules, what we need now is some transparency and realism about planning enforcement. Clearly the immediate responsibility lies with the management of Lewisham Planning team, so any suggestions I make here are merely tentative. I would suggest, however:
  • A review and prioritisation of existing enforcement cases - including the case of Kenté's referred to earlier in this thread
  • A redeployment of resources / staff to enforcement
  • Better IT systems - e.g. TPOs as discussed here http://forum.sydenham.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5926
Such changes imply some streamlining of the planning system - but this is in fact what the Coalition Government wants, and hopes to make happen via the Localism Bill which is going through Parliament. It is also supported by Civic Action http://www.civicvoice.org.uk/uploads/fi ... y_2011.pdf, and was welcomed by the SydSoc exec at Wednesday's AGM.
love-sydenham
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Re: New “shop” on Sydenham Road

Post by love-sydenham »

Just applied against it... Sorry, if some people aren't happy about this, but I just felt that had to do it...
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