ESTATE AGENT SIGNS IN THE HIGH STREET

[leenewham]

Should we ban them? There are loads of them, they seem to be a permanent fixture.

Why we should:
1. They look ugly and visually clutter up the already cluttered high street.
2. They never get taken down.
3. The wood batons that hold them to the walls are left in place even if the sign is removed.
4. The high street is a conservation area.
5. It might encourage Estate agents to put their ads in the empty shop windows instead.
6. In turn this may make the empty shops look better…
7. …which may also discourage fly posting…
8. Which may also mean the shops are let quicker.
9. Arguably they aren't that effective especially as most people either go online or visit and estate agent. Besides, they are so high up, mot people don't look that far up a building.
10. They make the high street less attractive which can (arguably) make the shops harder to let.
11. they are so common that you probably don't even notice them, the more you see them the less you notice them. They are wallpaper.
12. Sometimes they advertise properties (flats especially) that have already been sold or let.

Click here for an example of how to advertise an empty shop from another What If Campaign I did for my old home town in Ilfracome: http://whatifilfracombe.wordpress.com/2 ... appealing/

An estate agent could work with local designers and artists to decorate the window that is also an ad for the shop.

Why we shouldn't:
1. The signs are cheap for estate agents to put up (it costs them about £15 to put up and another £15 to take down plus the cost of the sign).
2. Estate agents wouldn't do it if they didn't think it helped their business.
3. They are the only way to advertise a flat high up on a building.
4. There are probably some estate agents who are good and take down their signs when they should would be penalized for others that don't.

I cant think of any others reasons (feel free to ad to the list).

I know estate agents look at this site, I'd be interested to hear their views, especially Wooster & Stock who are behind the rebranding of Kirkdale Village. I Cllr Chris Best knows this is an issue and we have talked about this before. I'd be interested in your views on this Chris, especially as one of your pledges is to create a vibrant high street. If you live outside of Sydenham, a local trader or live locally what do you think?

Also…


If it is implemented:
How would it be policed?
Who would police it?
What would the penalty be if the ban is broken?

Is this a valid step to achieving a vibrant high street?

[Chris Best]

Yes Lee I have been chasing the enforcement team to press the estate agents to remove their boards after 14 days of letting or sale. I wrote to the estate agents a while ago saying that I did not want to go down the enforcement route and hoped they would comply by removing the boards. I am pleased to say that on my follow visit most of the estate agents understood that the boards did not add to the high street. Unfortunately two were reluctant to do so and have been very unhelpful on my subsequent visits.

At the last Assembly on the 3 March we discussed the report on Housing and Development http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres ... denham.pdf

At the end of the report is the following comment:
Complaints have also been received regarding a proliferation of estate agents boards and satellite dishes on buildings along Sydenham Road. Unfortunately, the planning enforcement team are currently having to prioritise workloads according to the severity of breach. However, in the near future, a survey will be undertaken to assess the extent of the problem on both issues.

Given officer time is limited, and is spent on issues such as dangerous structure notices, I am starting a current list of boards and dishes. I will then compare this to my last list and write again to the offending estate agents. Maybe then will be the time to name and shame!

Many thanks for highlighting my Spring Newsletter http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres ... letter.pdf

Cllr Chris Best
http://www.chrisbest.org.uk

[Tim Lund]

Given officer time is limited, and is spent on issues such as dangerous structure notices, I am starting a current list of boards and dishes. I will then compare this to my last list and write again to the offending estate agents. Maybe then will be the time to name and shame!

This is good to know, Chris, but why does it have to be a call on your limited time? Can nothing be done in Sydenham without you? Please get in touch with either me or Lee to discuss how we can take this forward.

[leenewham]

Just out of interest, as it's a conservation area now, should they not have to apply for planning permission to put up an ad?

If all ads were banned would it not be a level playing field for all estate agents?

What do estate agents think. Are these ads essential or in the case of shops, can they do something altogether more constructive with the empty shops as in a previous What If…

BEFORE


But what if:


Peddars recently covered their windows in a similar fashion before they opened, although on an empty shop in Sydenham they have stick a great big board like everyone else on a shop that has been empty for as long as I have been in Sydenham. So the current advertising strategy may not be working.

Would any estate agent CONSIDER doing something along the lines of the What if above, even as an experiment, get some press and perhaps show the way forward rather than following what everyone else does?

[bigbadwolf]

I know I may have been a bit scornful with regards to your What if campaign/proposals, Lee, but even I can agree that what you're suggesting is much more aesthetically pleasing than a whitewashed window. Not to mention innovative, what with suggesting potential retail options/possibilities to prospective buyers. If it were made a reality I would be more than happy to apply my seal of approval to t tohe scheme.

[CaptainCarCrash]

Just out of interest, as it's a conservation area now, should they not have to apply for planning permission to put up an ad?

If all ads were banned would it not be a level playing field for all estate agents?

What do estate agents think. Are these ads essential or in the case of shops, can they do something altogether more constructive with the empty shops as in a previous What If…

BEFORE


But what if:


Peddars recently covered their windows in a similar fashion before they opened, although on an empty shop in Sydenham they have stick a great big board like everyone else on a shop that has been empty for as long as I have been in Sydenham. So the current advertising strategy may not be working.

Would any estate agent CONSIDER doing something along the lines of the What if above, even as an experiment, get some press and perhaps show the way forward rather than following what everyone else does?

Your design skills make it look great Lee however there are a couple of reasons why your idea will not work. Firstly and most importantly is the cost? the second issue is security. I can't see many estate agents spending money on shop fronts when they are agents for the seller? would it also be difficult to implement from a sellers point of view especially if funds are tight and they were in the situation of having to move the property on more quickly. I think the pic showing the boarding up does seem to be a sub standard job and the perpetrator of such shoddy work should be held accountable.

[leenewham]

The costs wouldn't be so big Mike.

Peddar put temporary stickers in the window of the old HSBC building. The cost of window Vinyls are about £20-50pm2. You are looking at a few hundred pounds for the cost of the window. Even a few fliers for a local campaign or arts festval cost more than that. There are even more cost effective ways of doing (and eco friendly, but I will show those in a future what if when I get the time, I've got brochures to design for the Home Park Funday First!)

Obviously I went to town on the visual above. But they actually did their own version of it in Ilfracombe (I don't have pictures of what they did).

It's advertising. You have to invest just like a shop owner invests in the services of an estate agent.

There are 12 empty shops in Sydenham from Kent House Road up to the Station (not including derelict buildings). 7 Of those are in the area described on this forum as 'Basra row' (the space between Kent House Road and the Car Wash Garage).

If estate agents can invest in Arts Festivals and branding schemes for Kirkdale Village which make the area better or making their own businesses look better (as Peddar did), than why not for the properties that they are selling?

I think the biggest hurdle will be getting permission from the landlord. But lets not say it wont work, lets ask if it will make a positive contribution to the high street and and if so, how can we make it happen.

It make take time. It took 13 What If's to fulfill the aim to get one business to do it and get people talking about the high street.

[Annie]

I love your "what ifs" Lee,I wish you could just take your magic colouring palette and do the whole street for real,

My pet hate is satellite dishes! can any thing be done about them? I don't mean the ones put on the roofs but the ones put on the front of houses etc.what is the law regarding the placement of them?

[leenewham]

Having walked around London today after the Assembly, it seems as if lots of other areas in London don't have the same issue with Estate Agent Signs.

Is there ANY good reason why we can't just ban them Cllr Best as other boroughs seem to? What makes Sydenham different, our high street is similar in architecture to others with flats above shops.

If Estate agents are uncooperative (as you have said Cllr Best) in removing their signs within 14 days and these agents agree that they are detrimental to the look of the high street, then why not just ban them? Or at the very least ban then from putting "SOLD" on a for sale sign. If it's sold the sign has done it's job. It no longer needs to be there.

So, any estate agents wish to comment?

[mosy]

Re estate agents boards, where I live boards are put up and in fairness taken down reasonably promptly. However, the low retaining wall is scattered with 2-3" nails left sticking out which I think are dangerous for young children walking past. Estate agents' contractors should be encouraged to remove the nails as well as the boards and mounting sticks. Granted I've not seen a young child hurt by one when running close to the wall, yet, but the nails shouldn't be left there.

On your what ifs, Lee, I think they are great though regrettably the glass remains unprotected. I was heartbroken, but only half as much as the shopkeeper's whose beautiful curved glass windows were smashed. Also, It was not five minutes before the estate agent window once empty on the corner of Silverdale was broken. I think your what ifs might have to go onto the outside of boarding or a roller shutter if already in place. I can't see an estate agent or landlord wanting to bear the cost of replacing broken windows if that can be avoided by shielding them.

[leenewham]

Roller shutters are supposed to be open faced ones, not closed as most of them are in Sydenham as they break planning regulations.

I'd like to know how many windows are broken and how often. Tatty, empty shops often get windows broken first as anything rundown attracts vandals. The shutters don't make any difference to the insurance costs strangely.

Overall the shutters make the high street look even more rundown than it is. With the shop owners I have spoken to, some installed them for peace of mind, some to stop people using the recess in their shop as a toilet. So far I haven't spoken to a shop owner who installed one to stop their windows from being broken (although this must be the case for some!).

The What If you mention above is from Ilfracombe where were asked to design a set of them for the North Devon Journal (I use to live there). I don't recall any shops in Ilfracombe having roller shutters. Infact most don't in Central London either. I've yet to see any evidence that roller shutters are essential and I've searched! They only protect the windows at night when the shop is shut. Roller shutters are expensive (£1000+). Shop front glass varies but you may be interested in this Mosy: http://www.pbd-glazing.co.uk/Shop_Front ... ement.html

I'd still like to hear from an estate agents about this.

[The The]

Walked up high street earlier today and lost count of the amount of boards up above shops. It looks awful. I thought things were going to change? A previous post said Cllr Best was looking into this but looks to me like there are more boards than ever. It would be good to find out what plans, if any, are afoot to deal with this?

[marymck]

I live in a terraced house with a brick wall separating the gardens to the front. Our wall has been virtually destroyed by estate agents nailing their signs into it. The irony is that it's not even as if they're advertising our house ... it's the house next door and it's not their wall!

They hammer them in with six inch nails, which when removed allow frost action into the brickwork, thus leading to disintegration of the bricks. Acorn and Foxtons are the latest offenders.

I have been chasing the enforcement team to press the estate agents to remove their boards after 14 days of letting or sale.

I didn't know there was a 14 day rule. That's really useful to know, thanks Chris. The Acorn sign (now moved to the correct wall!) has been on display for at least three months following letting. There is also a plethora of old let & sold signage around the Wooster and Stock Village area ... Wooster and Stock being the worst offenders with their HUGE sign adjacent to The Woodman.

[leenewham]

Property world are pretty bad too.

I saw them put up a sign including the wooden batons to hold it to the wall where there wan't one before for a sign to say the property had been SOLD. Not for sale, not for let, SOLD. So it's an advert for their business, NOT for the sale or let of the property they are selling.

The 14 day rule isn't working, it wont work because enforcement are so stretched at Lewisham that they simply can't cope with all the requests from all over the borough, let alone Sydenham.

So if we don't want them, we need to ban them. It shouldn't be difficult. It's a conservation area.

If they are all banned it's a level playing field for all estate agents. There are far more creative ways of selling a commercial property that can enhance the streetscape. Either the examples i've shown above or companies such as http://www.shopjacket.co.uk/ (these are fairly expensive though).

The estate agents don't care, the council can't cope, the current rules are inadequate. Not only are they making our high street look uglier than it should, as Mary has said, they are damaging the fabric of the building. There are over 40 wooden batons left on buildings in the high street and another 40+ signs. Many say the property has ben sold/let.

I'm surprised that estate agents are allowed to put these up. While working with Design for London on the Outer London Fund and various boroughs around London (wer'e in double figures already on destination branding I've discovered that if you put anything in the window, on a sign that is attached to the building that is promotional in any way, including a logo, you need to apply for advertising consent. This means it has to go through planning. Obviously it's ignored most of the time.

If I were you Mary, I'd insist that any damage to your property is made good by the estate agents.

[biscuitman1978]

A polite but firm letter (to Pedder and Acorn) requesting the removal of the boards on the building in which I live did the trick for me this week.

Thanks to both agents for removing the signs within three days of receiving the letter, though it's a shame they needed to be 'reminded' of the 14 day rule before they did so.

[Eagle]

Cannot see the need for boards nowadays. Most people check via web sites .
Perhaps they should be banned everywhere.

[mosy]

I wonder if estate agents even have or have had instructions where a sign is on a block of flats. Has anyone ever rung one and found a property actually to be available? Ones I've rung say "That one's gone now but if you tell us what you want...". I wonder if they just see another agent's sign and get one up themselves as a potential (if irrelevant to the property) lead in? Anyone rung a number and found that a property was actually available?

Just curious is all.

[poppy]

The Two Halfs (can't remember if is has unnecessary apostrophes or not) would be a great location for the window advertising along Lee's What if, ideas.

I can't remember seeing a To Let sign, but maybe it would be worth contacting the estate agent involved directly to ask if they would be interested, could be a good experiment for the high street...

On that note what would people like it to be?

P

[Annie]

On that note what would people like it to be?

Argos please.

[mosy]

The Two Halfs ...[clip] On that note what would people like it to be? P

poppy: In its own thread, http://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic. ... 0&start=60, Chris Best said about the premises:

:
"Re: The two half´s pub

Unread postby Chris Best » 8 Nov 2011 22:15
Here is the link for the details http://www.cradick.co.uk/availableRetai ... vId=37281- rent is £45,000 per annum exclusive of rates (shown as £6,603), insurance and VAT - so around £1,000 per week for a new sublease expiring 22 December 2016. Ground floor with sales space of 255 sq metres with storage and rear access for loading." [endquote]

So at a cost of c.£1,000/week rent/rates, the thread went very quiet, unsurprisingly. There was an LBC radio programme yesterday where high street rent and rates were discussed in a negative way tantamount to saying that it was those that were killing high streets more than were the chain multiples some of whom themselves were struggling to make a profit in such outlets.

I gather from this article: http://www.retailgazette.co.uk/articles ... erty-rates that rates are charged on empty properties.

It's hard to see what could be sold to people who have little or no money to spend. The only thing I can think of that might be viable would be a TV shop given digital switchover, though that boom trade will be over in about a year I guess, then what for the remainder of the lease...