My take on London's Riots

[Lisa]

whats your solution digime2007

[digime2007]

There are better people than me to advise on the solution and there's no magic bullet (not that kind of bullet Eagle!).

I do know that you can't fix things unless you understand how they work and you can't do that by stereotyping and demonising. That just leads to prejudice and discrimination.

I understand how the fear provoked by the riots naturally lead to anger but actions born of anger are rarely, if ever, the right ones. They are more often motivated by a desire for some kind of retribution or revenge, usually to make people feel better in themselves rather than to deal effectively with the real problems.

You also see this when people talk of slinging people out of the country, their home or into prison without considering the knock on effects of these actions. Of course all these actions are perfectly legitimate and should be taken in the right circumstances but that's not where things end. If you're not careful you might make yourself feel better but actually make things worse.

[CaptainCarCrash]

There are better people than me to advise on the solution and there's no magic bullet (not that kind of bullet Eagle!).

I do know that you can't fix things unless you understand how they work and you can't do that by stereotyping and demonising. That just leads to prejudice and discrimination.

I understand how the fear provoked by the riots naturally lead to anger but actions born of anger are rarely, if ever, the right ones. They are more often motivated by a desire for some kind of retribution or revenge, usually to make people feel better in themselves rather than to deal effectively with the real problems.

You also see this when people talk of slinging people out of the country, their home or into prison without considering the knock on effects of these actions. Of course all these actions are perfectly legitimate and should be taken in the right circumstances but that's not where things end. If you're not careful you might make yourself feel better but actually make things worse.

All very amicable,

The problems lie in decades of neglect and a stuff you jack I'm al-right mentality that has soaked in to our way of life.

Some of the problems lie in the fact that there are people who are just plain useless and will not function in any kind of authoritative environment and some people are non conformists and will not accept that the grind of a blue collar job that doesn't pay isn't worth bothering with because as a rule a lot of the low end employment is very low paid and for some the prospect of doing the right thing and conforming is just not worth the bother.

I sometimes feel that if things are totally out of reach for certain people then why even bother working for a low wage.

Because it is the correct thing to do? I don't think that is good enough.

Do these types of jobs exist? The open market is harming the home grown work force and globalisation has pretty much destroyed manufacturing in this country through Thatcherite Neo-Libralism and along with Labours legacy hell bent on creating a service industry that really only befits the middle class is a problem that will only get worse.

So without the correct schooling or background the average Joe will be toast. It's nothing new and it's been happening for centuries.

For me the riots highlighted a problem that the politicians and socio elite have swept under the carpet for far too long it's high time they addressed the real issues that surround poverty and the urban decay that is a bi product of underinvestment and utopian ideology.

[Eagle]

I agree that their are well behaved and nice people on benefits and anti social people not on benefits.

Problem is that the nasty persons on benefit are a drain on society and our taxes. The others are presumably paying taxes.

Anti social behavior should be stamped on whoever the offender.

At the moment their is zero penalty we can give the anti social benefit cheat short of prison. If you fine them the judge would say they can only afford 5p a week.

Mike is quite right this has been brewing for years and a lot of these people are totally unfit to do any jobs. As Mike says this is not helped by unlimited immigration of unskilled workers to fill the unskilled jobs.

This is not a middle class problem and people like Michael just take advantage of the low wages paid to unskilled workers due to the glut.

This will get worse and worse until we get out of this cycle. Most of these people MUST work and want to work. This will not happen overnight and will never happen unless the mass immigation is slowed to a trickle.

if our economy is growing about 1 per cent at most and we are sliding into another recession , why do we want more unskilled workers.

[michael]

... people like Michael just take advantage of the low wages paid to unskilled workers due to the glut.

I don't pay anybody's wages. I get the same advantages from cheaper good and services as you and everybody else in the country (even the government and the unemployed).

But you are right that if it were not for unskilled immigration then we would be paying substantially more for many good and services, so much so that we would not be able to afford the health service or adult social care that we do have. Thankfully in the last few years many immigrants (skilled, unskilled, and students) have come to this country to make a better life for themselves and for all of us. Immigration is not without problems, but it creates a better society and has been proved to provide a net benefit to the country.

[Eagle]

I can see you always have an answer Michael so with regret our views are not going to meet midway.

Your logic about not being able to afford the Health Service etc if we were not having to pay for 3 million plus unemployed is so baffling , I give up.

[Voyageur]

I think that the liberal left have been pretty ruinous on the whole for the uk over the last 15 - 20 years. I do however believe that targeted immigration would be a good way forward - limiting numbers and allowing in those that have skills that we need plus a small number of genuine asylum seekers.

As for the long term unemployed - well radical thinking followed by firm action is needed. I certainly would feel in safer hands in that respect with the tories than labour or the lib dems.

[Annie]

I think that the liberal left have been pretty ruinous on the whole for the uk over the last 15 - 20 years. I do however believe that targeted immigration would be a good way forward - limiting numbers and allowing in those that have skills that we need plus a small number of genuine asylum seekers.

As for the long term unemployed - well radical thinking followed by firm action is needed. I certainly would feel in safer hands in that respect with the tories than labour or the lib dems.

Well put

[Eagle]

I agree Anne and Voyager.
We have to reduce the class that has no intention of working. They will simply breed another generation which will not want to work.

We need to assist them by making sure that native people can move into low skilled jobs .

I do not agree with Michael's postition that we should encourage immigration and leave these people to fester in their growing ghetto's . I am afraid this is the attitude that has caused the problem along with Anthony Blair Esq.

[Annie]

"We need to assist them by making sure that native people can move into low skilled jobs ."


That would be a good start Eagle

[Tim Lund]

I agree Anne and Voyager.
We have to reduce the class that has no intention of working. They will simply breed another generation which will not want to work.

Up to a point, Eagle - that point being the word 'breed'. If you'd said "set an example of sponging off others", I'd have been happier. It's not a matter of breeding, but more a culture, which doesn't have to depend on family, although since culture is very much learned from your family, there is a correlation.

We need to assist them by making sure that native people can move into low skilled jobs .

I do not agree with Michael's postition that we should encourage immigration and leave these people to fester in their growing ghetto's.

I'm not sure that Michael particularly wants to encourage immigration - I'd guess what he wants is a strong economy with a high degree of individual freedom - the two are correlated. And it is these which encourage immigration - because immigrants want to come to such an economy, and employers want to be able to hire the best people, regardless of where they come from. That's my position - if it's not Michael's, he'll let us know.

I'd accept that the government still has some responsibility for its own citizens who do not find a place in such an economy. but it should be by providing better education, as well as a tax and benefit system with encourages them to find work. Shielding them from competition from immigrants would not be a good idea.

[sfhyouthforum]

Well it all starts with a good C.V.

http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/3ozQ1o/dz ... signs.html

[CaptainCarCrash]

The stats make for a good read.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15426720

Surprise Surprise, most of the rioters were young, poor and uneducated, a large proportion of them are special needs.

Anyone know where I can get information on the latest court proceedings?

[Eagle]

What struck me was how many were not British.

What a way to abuse our hospitality

I assume all foreigners convicted have been sent home.

[simon]

Sorry Eagle; saw no reference to nationality in that report?

[Eagle]

Apologies I cannot see in that report either.
I am sure I heard it on the wireless today.

[CaptainCarCrash]

I heard the same report Eagle.

It stated that around 40% of the rioters were migrants.

This country is broken.

[Robin Orton]

14%, not 40%, according to this report. And that was the percentage 'born abroad ', rather than 'not British'.

[Eagle]

14% is 14% too many.
I would imagine Australia or Canada sending convicted rioters home.

You should not abuse hospitality.

[digime2007]

Just to keep perspective - according to another Daily Mail article "more than one in three people living in London were born outside Britain". If you believe both stats you may conclude that foreign born nationals are actually more law abiding and setting a better example than "true Brits". Now there's a thought you're unlikely to read in the Daily Mail.

Having said that I understand Cliff Richard was born in India and is therefore a foreign national. Next time he gets a parking ticket I'm all in for getting him deported!