St. Mary's Oratory

[Falkor]

Unless I'm mistaken, the current hall at the top of Sydenham Hill Estate--used for Karate practise among other things--is built almost exactly on the same spot where the house of St. Mary's Oratory had previously stood? Behind the hall and balcony is some square foundations; any ideas what these are all about? Also, I've found remains of 2 irregular looking stone walls; could these be from before the time the estate was built? Any other remnants known to exist? Do any of the roads/pathways even match those of the original wooded gardens? And where exactly was the graveyard? Any help would be much appreciated!

[leaf]

im sure someone told me that the graveyard was around the location of the hall?

in fact i think it might be where you say there are stone blocks,im sure it was said that they werent allowed to build on the gravesite?

i have always thought that the graves[the bodies]were moved prior to building starting?

[still_robbo]

Falkor,

Do you use Google Earth at all? That can give you a fantastic aerial view of areas you are interested in. The resolution of the satellite photos is down to less than a metre and so might help give clues to what lies beneath the surface.

Link here:

http://earth.google.com/

[Falkor]

Do you use Google Earth at all?

Sometimes, but prefer Live Local for it's N,S,E,W Birdseye views.

The resolution of the satellite photos is down to less than a metre and so might help give clues to what lies beneath the surface.

I'm a bit sceptical about that... With a proper NASA satellite image, I know it's possible to find out where meteorites have hit the earth. However, I don't believe one could find out, say, where the graveyard once stood using a simple ariel photo. A German archaelogist in the late 1980s claimed to have found the route of the 1864 Atmospheric Railway over Crystal Palace park by first surveying the land by helicopter, but this all sounds rather phony to me.

[still_robbo]

I imagined that you'd have explored that particular avenue, but mentioned it just in case.

That kind of imagary can give you a clue about where old boundary walls, footpaths and earthworks not visible from ground level are, but I know it's not a replacement for proper 'footwork'.

[Steve Grindlay]

I agree with you to a degree, still_robbo, but for me there is still nothing to beat a combination of maps, documents (and this might include Google) and footwork.

Falkor, you mentioned St Mary's. I've uploaded some [maps] which show where I think St Mary's was. Although I almost agree with you about the position of St Marys, by comparing the 1894 and 1974 maps it would seem that St Mary's was nearer to the junction with Crescent Wood Road, ie nearer to Eddisbury House.

Leaf, you ask about the graveyard. The maps show a cleared rectangle of land amongst the woodland on the lower slopes towards Wells Park Road. As Falkor's and other images sugggest the graveyard was surrounded by woodland, I'm pretty sure this was where the the brothers were buried. By comparing, for example, the line along the front gardens of the houses at the top of Oaksford Avenue in the 1916 map and the 1976 map (this line is one of the few permanent features) it suggests that the the graveyard was somewhere in front of Homildon House. I've a feeling that it is just a car park now.

[leaf]

thanks steve,great photos.

steve do you know if there is any truth in what i was told about the bodies being reburied elsewhere?

[Falkor]

Good work, Steve! Cheers for sharing all those maps... I see the larger scale one show a bit more detail than my Godfrey edition... Thanks for clarifying the position of St. Mary's Oratory and the burial ground...

This map shows Oaksford Avenue as it was finally developed. The blank plot to the left was never part of St Mary's.

I've always wondered what this area was all about...

I think I figured out what the foundations were used for; it seems there were once statues in Sydenham Hill Estate, but they must have been vandalised before my time, as I don't recall ever seeing them. Here's a photo below, from the 60s, showing possibly the one that was behind the Karate hall.


Here's all the old photos I could find of St. Mary's Oratory and it's gardens, including the burial ground...

[Steve Grindlay]

steve do you know if there is any truth in what i was told about the bodies being reburied elsewhere?

It is true. A friend, Michael Viner, wrote an article in the Sydenham Society News a few years ago where he explained that: "The bodies of the Fathers in the cemetery, including Father Faber, were exhumed and reburied at the London Oratory when the L.C.C.'s demolition plans were first proposed, in 1949." I bet they left some bits behind though (sorry, is that tasteless?)

[leaf]

thanks again steve

i wouldnt be surprised if they left some bits behind!!


*another question,do you know if the 'removal' was done in the month of december?

[Falkor]

[smiller]

Could anyone tell me where the photos of St Mary's Oratory posted by Falkor came from? I'd like to track them down as I am working on a book about The London Oratory and they had quite a few connections with St Mary's. Thanks

[Manwithaview1]

Could anyone tell me where the photos of St Mary's Oratory posted by Falkor came from? I'd like to track them down as I am working on a book about The London Oratory and they had quite a few connections with St Mary's. Thanks

Right click on the pictures, then view image, this then sends you to the original website

http://www.rarekungfumovies.com/sydenham/marys3.jpg as an example for the last picture

[smiller]

Thanks!