I enjoyed watching the video on Forest Hill baths very much.
I was particularly interested in seeing the interior again as I haven't been inside since about 1973 when we used to go for swimming lessons from Sydenham Girls School, just a short walk away.
I remember the gallery with tatty, ripped curtains which were not too wholesome and remember arriving once and seeing it boarded over from the night before.
Lovely memories.
Video on Forest Hill Baths
Poppy, what movie is this/ I'd love to see it.
This makes for interesting reading!
http://www.derelictlondon.com/pools.htm
Hopefully our council will avoid the mistakes made in haggerson where a new facility as built instead of restoring the old baths. Costs escalated to 31 million and it closed after 2 years in health and safety grounds.
It's a fascinating website and goes to show how much of our heritage is being destroyed by greedy developers and blinkered councils.
This makes for interesting reading!
http://www.derelictlondon.com/pools.htm
Hopefully our council will avoid the mistakes made in haggerson where a new facility as built instead of restoring the old baths. Costs escalated to 31 million and it closed after 2 years in health and safety grounds.
It's a fascinating website and goes to show how much of our heritage is being destroyed by greedy developers and blinkered councils.
This one?leenewham wrote:Poppy, what movie is this/ I'd love to see it.
http://www.sydenham.tv/cgi-bin/sydtv_ju ... WIEIGEwL4E
Admin
Last edited by admin on 24 Mar 2008 00:14, edited 1 time in total.
Great video.
Perhaps I am missing something here, but aren't the pools supposed to be leaking water at 'an alarming rate' and the crack is 'much worse than originally thought'.
If that is the case, why, when the pools are shut, and have been for a very long time, are they still full of water? Other pools that have been shut for years are empty. Haggerston was, the one in Kentish Toawn (which was refurbished was), the one which they knocked down in the town I used to live in Devon was.
Anyone else find this odd?
Note to self...I smell a rat in all this.
Perhaps I am missing something here, but aren't the pools supposed to be leaking water at 'an alarming rate' and the crack is 'much worse than originally thought'.
If that is the case, why, when the pools are shut, and have been for a very long time, are they still full of water? Other pools that have been shut for years are empty. Haggerston was, the one in Kentish Toawn (which was refurbished was), the one which they knocked down in the town I used to live in Devon was.
Anyone else find this odd?
Note to self...I smell a rat in all this.
Lee - Like you I want a functioning, modern pool whilst retaining as much of the original building as we possibly can. If Lewisham come up with a plan which just shows a "glass box" similar to the one that they have recently erected in Downham (see link below) then that isn't going to be acceptable to the vast majority of local people.
http://www.lewishampct.nhs.uk/ImageGall ... msmall.jpg
You raise the question of why the swimming pool is full in Steve's video when the reports from experts say that pool is irreparably damaged and leaking? This to you hints at some dark, conspiracy theory in which Lewisham Council are lying to us about the extent of pool damage - aided presumably by two highly reputable specialist contractors who somehow have been inveigled into submitting false reports.
The truth is somewhat more prosaic. Steve made the video in 2006, two weeks before the pools closed!
http://www.lewishampct.nhs.uk/ImageGall ... msmall.jpg
You raise the question of why the swimming pool is full in Steve's video when the reports from experts say that pool is irreparably damaged and leaking? This to you hints at some dark, conspiracy theory in which Lewisham Council are lying to us about the extent of pool damage - aided presumably by two highly reputable specialist contractors who somehow have been inveigled into submitting false reports.
The truth is somewhat more prosaic. Steve made the video in 2006, two weeks before the pools closed!
But what about the video the BBC made with Steve Bullock? WAsnt that made after the pools were shut? They were full of water then.
I took a load of pictures of it the other day and bumped into a guy from the council. He said that they were still full of water.
He also said the Listed Fire station in Forest Hill was under danger of being knocked down by the council.
I agree Nasaroc about the new building, it should be a credit to the borough and a worthy replacement to the current building. I smell a rat because of some things I have been told, plus my dealings in the past with the council and Sir Steve have, unfortunately, eroded any trust or faith I have in them.
I hope they prove me wrong.
On a bright note, Steve Grindleys film was wonderful. More please.
I took a load of pictures of it the other day and bumped into a guy from the council. He said that they were still full of water.
He also said the Listed Fire station in Forest Hill was under danger of being knocked down by the council.
I agree Nasaroc about the new building, it should be a credit to the borough and a worthy replacement to the current building. I smell a rat because of some things I have been told, plus my dealings in the past with the council and Sir Steve have, unfortunately, eroded any trust or faith I have in them.
I hope they prove me wrong.
On a bright note, Steve Grindleys film was wonderful. More please.
Lee, mate - surely we have enough problems with getting new pools in a well-designed building without having to invent conspiracy theories.
Are you actually saying that two highly-regarded construction companies investigated the pools, found they weren't leaking but conspired with Lewisham Council to declare that they WERE leaking - when LBL were half way down the road to refurbishing the existing pools at a fraction of the amount that they now say new pools will cost. What's the logic in that?
Yes the pools are still being pumped full of water because the danger of letting the pools empty and the clay undersoil to dry out is severe undermining of the foundations, particularly as the main pool has a huge hole underneath.
Lee - let's concentrate on getting a new good-quality pool instead of trying to blow superficial evidence from videos or from "a guy I bumped into from the council" into SE23's version of Dianagate.
Are you actually saying that two highly-regarded construction companies investigated the pools, found they weren't leaking but conspired with Lewisham Council to declare that they WERE leaking - when LBL were half way down the road to refurbishing the existing pools at a fraction of the amount that they now say new pools will cost. What's the logic in that?
Yes the pools are still being pumped full of water because the danger of letting the pools empty and the clay undersoil to dry out is severe undermining of the foundations, particularly as the main pool has a huge hole underneath.
Lee - let's concentrate on getting a new good-quality pool instead of trying to blow superficial evidence from videos or from "a guy I bumped into from the council" into SE23's version of Dianagate.
Nope, I'm not saying that the surveys were duped or altered to favour pulling it down at all, although I know that this does go on in councils, but of course I'm not saying that this goes on here in Lewisham. Glad you cleared up the reason why the baths are still full of water.
Like I said, i thought it was odd that they were still full.
I still think that we wont get a building as a worthy successor to the one currently standing on the site. That's just the pessimist designer inside of me. I haven't seen any evidence of any building that has any link with Lewisham council that has any form of architectural merit so far.
Like I said before, I hope they prove me wrong.
Like I said, i thought it was odd that they were still full.
I still think that we wont get a building as a worthy successor to the one currently standing on the site. That's just the pessimist designer inside of me. I haven't seen any evidence of any building that has any link with Lewisham council that has any form of architectural merit so far.
Like I said before, I hope they prove me wrong.
For the full Forest Hill Pools story from Lewisham Council's perspective - go here: http://tinyurl.com/35plru
Re architecture. There are some new interesting modern architectural award winners for public buildings in the borough. Albeit with tenuous links to the council and may be not to everybody's taste:
http://www.stephenlawrence.org.uk/content/view/61/67/
http://www.laban.org/building.phtml
http://www.childrenfirstlewisham.org.uk/
I haven't been to see Forest Hill School yet. Its hard to judge from these pictures: http://www.sydenham.org.uk/news_forest_ ... l_pfi.html
Admin
Re architecture. There are some new interesting modern architectural award winners for public buildings in the borough. Albeit with tenuous links to the council and may be not to everybody's taste:
http://www.stephenlawrence.org.uk/content/view/61/67/
http://www.laban.org/building.phtml
http://www.childrenfirstlewisham.org.uk/
I haven't been to see Forest Hill School yet. Its hard to judge from these pictures: http://www.sydenham.org.uk/news_forest_ ... l_pfi.html
Admin
Last edited by admin on 19 Mar 2008 11:12, edited 1 time in total.
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annabel mclaren
- Posts: 115
- Joined: 1 Oct 2004 19:55
- Location: thorpes
There is a very interesting discussion about all of this on SE23.com at this link: http://www.se23.com/forum/showthread.ph ... 91#pid6291
(apologies to Admin for sending posters to the rival site, but we are all in this together!). Arguments for Modernism are currently being aired with those who would to like to see a conservationist approach, ie saving some of the facade and building new pools behind. As chair of the Sydenham Society's conservation sub-committee it is obvious where I stand - I think that the group of buildings consisting of Louise House, the Pools and FH Library are an incredibly important feature of the streetscape of Dartmouth Road and demolition amounts to municipal vandalism of the worst order. Architects have told me that it is possible to build new pools behind the facade and preserve the exterior, and the Sydenham Society are putting this point of view to the Council. Just like recycling, conservation / refurbishment of old buildings is a more environmentally friendly approach - demolition is wasteful and energy intensive.
(apologies to Admin for sending posters to the rival site, but we are all in this together!). Arguments for Modernism are currently being aired with those who would to like to see a conservationist approach, ie saving some of the facade and building new pools behind. As chair of the Sydenham Society's conservation sub-committee it is obvious where I stand - I think that the group of buildings consisting of Louise House, the Pools and FH Library are an incredibly important feature of the streetscape of Dartmouth Road and demolition amounts to municipal vandalism of the worst order. Architects have told me that it is possible to build new pools behind the facade and preserve the exterior, and the Sydenham Society are putting this point of view to the Council. Just like recycling, conservation / refurbishment of old buildings is a more environmentally friendly approach - demolition is wasteful and energy intensive.
Lee is quite right in being surprised by the fact that the Pools of Forest Hill Pools look ok in spite of the fact that the report to the Mayor speaks of an alarming leak.
I have been contacted by a member of the Friends of Forest Hill Pools, the group that saved the pools twice in the past tweve years and he told me that he visited Forest Hill Library and read the full report of the contractors that was used to produce the report to the Mayor.
One surprising thing emerged from the reading, the fact that the alarming rate of leakage happened during the refilling of the pools and then it decreased to the usual rate and stabilized there.
This detail was omitted in the report to the Mayor (and the public).
This person has written to the Council and is now waiting a reply and I am eager to know what the Council will respond.
So, the pools were looking ok in 2006 when Steve Grinday was there filmed before they were emptied and they still look ok in 2008 when Steve Bullock was filmed there after they were refilled (and they had leaked at an alarming rate but then stopped leaking as much but nobody told you that).
I have been contacted by a member of the Friends of Forest Hill Pools, the group that saved the pools twice in the past tweve years and he told me that he visited Forest Hill Library and read the full report of the contractors that was used to produce the report to the Mayor.
One surprising thing emerged from the reading, the fact that the alarming rate of leakage happened during the refilling of the pools and then it decreased to the usual rate and stabilized there.
This detail was omitted in the report to the Mayor (and the public).
This person has written to the Council and is now waiting a reply and I am eager to know what the Council will respond.
So, the pools were looking ok in 2006 when Steve Grinday was there filmed before they were emptied and they still look ok in 2008 when Steve Bullock was filmed there after they were refilled (and they had leaked at an alarming rate but then stopped leaking as much but nobody told you that).
Re The Laban Centre 70% was funded by The Arts Council Lottery Fund and the rest by The LDA, and others including Lewisham & Greenwich Councils.
I think the PCT may have funded most of the Children's Centre plus a couple of million from Lewisham council.
At the consultation the matter of Louise House was raised a number of times and the public were told a decision would be made when the future of the pools had been decided.
In 2006 the Mayor announced refurb was his choice and repeated this in Feb 2007 after the intrusive survey and agreeing more money to meet the costs. But in the following two years officers of the council put no suggestion forward regarding Louise House.
Then out of the blue it's announced not only will the pools be demolished but also Louise House and the open space will be built on.
There appears to have been no further surveys conducted after the intrusive survey in 2006 apart from officers measuring the leakage in 2007. The report before the Mayor in February seems to be based on the results of Pinnacle ESP's intrusive survey.
The intrusive survey indicated there is a void, the size of the void and it's affect seem to be based on opinion rather than fact?
So we have the company who carried out the intrusive survey originally saying there's little to worry about and then that view rather dramatically being revised over a year later.
I think the PCT may have funded most of the Children's Centre plus a couple of million from Lewisham council.
At the consultation the matter of Louise House was raised a number of times and the public were told a decision would be made when the future of the pools had been decided.
In 2006 the Mayor announced refurb was his choice and repeated this in Feb 2007 after the intrusive survey and agreeing more money to meet the costs. But in the following two years officers of the council put no suggestion forward regarding Louise House.
Then out of the blue it's announced not only will the pools be demolished but also Louise House and the open space will be built on.
There appears to have been no further surveys conducted after the intrusive survey in 2006 apart from officers measuring the leakage in 2007. The report before the Mayor in February seems to be based on the results of Pinnacle ESP's intrusive survey.
The intrusive survey indicated there is a void, the size of the void and it's affect seem to be based on opinion rather than fact?
So we have the company who carried out the intrusive survey originally saying there's little to worry about and then that view rather dramatically being revised over a year later.
The laban Centre is an interesting piece of modern architecture. But is didn't replace something of historical value. It was also an arts venue and a showcase for regenration in the area so had to be an impressive, visually interesting building. Lewisham council didn't have much to do with it, unlike lewisham 2000 (still han't happened), Brockley Cross developement (still hasn't happened), Ladywell pools (ditto) etc etc.
Why doesn't Lewisham council sell off Louise house, which seems to be the forgotten part of all this, and let it be converted into fantastic apartments or office space or some social club or something.
Buildings that have used the original facade have been very successful like the Oxo Tower, 21 Baker Street, Butlers Wharf, St Pancreas, Tate Modern etc. I see no reason why they can't do it here.
Why doesn't Lewisham Council run a design competition for schemes to both totally replace the existing buildings or use the existing facades? THis is normal in architecture, would be good publicity and like the bridge between the Tate modern and St Pauls, the public can vote on it democratically. I am surprised and disappointed that Lewisham haven't even considered this as an option! We have some of the best architects and designers in the world in London/UK. Why not make use of it!
Some on Sir Steve, where is your vision? Imagine the publicity!
Why doesn't Lewisham council sell off Louise house, which seems to be the forgotten part of all this, and let it be converted into fantastic apartments or office space or some social club or something.
Buildings that have used the original facade have been very successful like the Oxo Tower, 21 Baker Street, Butlers Wharf, St Pancreas, Tate Modern etc. I see no reason why they can't do it here.
Why doesn't Lewisham Council run a design competition for schemes to both totally replace the existing buildings or use the existing facades? THis is normal in architecture, would be good publicity and like the bridge between the Tate modern and St Pauls, the public can vote on it democratically. I am surprised and disappointed that Lewisham haven't even considered this as an option! We have some of the best architects and designers in the world in London/UK. Why not make use of it!
Some on Sir Steve, where is your vision? Imagine the publicity!
Lee- agree with you entirely. We need a very high quality building in this space and a good way to get it would be to have a number of alternatives - an architectural competition - to give us reassurance that we aren't just going to get another "Lewisham special" - a low-quality tasteless building like many of the others they have erected all over the borough in the last few years.
The council has prevaricated for over 15 years on the fate of the pools, swinging from refurbishment to new build and back again. All of their actions have been too little too late. Now, faced with upcoming local and national elections in 2010, the mayor has hurriedly rushed out a plan which allows little time for reflection or quality. The attitude seems to be let's have a new building - any building - as long as it gets erected before we have to face the electorate again.
With the council in the driving seat, we are now careering rapidly down a one-way street with no turn-offs. I predict that hoardings will go up around Louise House and the swimming pool within weeks and that the council will move to demolition shortly afterwards.
This is sheer civic vandalism. The council has a short time to see sense before a backlash begins.
The council has prevaricated for over 15 years on the fate of the pools, swinging from refurbishment to new build and back again. All of their actions have been too little too late. Now, faced with upcoming local and national elections in 2010, the mayor has hurriedly rushed out a plan which allows little time for reflection or quality. The attitude seems to be let's have a new building - any building - as long as it gets erected before we have to face the electorate again.
With the council in the driving seat, we are now careering rapidly down a one-way street with no turn-offs. I predict that hoardings will go up around Louise House and the swimming pool within weeks and that the council will move to demolition shortly afterwards.
This is sheer civic vandalism. The council has a short time to see sense before a backlash begins.
Totally agree Nasaroc.
When this building get s knocked down, that's it.
It's gone.
Forever.
The whole street will be changed forever.
And whatever they build in its place we have to live with for the rest of our lifetimes.
Getting it right is more important than getting some box with a pool in it erected intime to win some votes. If the council knocks them down as soon as possible without looking at alternatives of saving at least the facade or creative designs for a replacement is sheer bully boy tactics.
We vote for the council and mayor, they serve us. Not the other way around.
When this building get s knocked down, that's it.
It's gone.
Forever.
The whole street will be changed forever.
And whatever they build in its place we have to live with for the rest of our lifetimes.
Getting it right is more important than getting some box with a pool in it erected intime to win some votes. If the council knocks them down as soon as possible without looking at alternatives of saving at least the facade or creative designs for a replacement is sheer bully boy tactics.
We vote for the council and mayor, they serve us. Not the other way around.
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tulse hill terry
- Posts: 686
- Joined: 25 Jun 2007 01:33
- Location: sarf lunnen
Isn't this what officials in this position depend on - the transient nature of urban populations. Who will stick around for the mess that is created?whatever they build in its place we have to live with for the rest of our lifetimes.
So many times I find the "improvement" of an area, gentrification for example, just means the importation of rate payers who just pay more than the previous inhabitants.
I had a look at the pools today and took some pictures. I noticed a door open around the back. I had a look, shouted to see if anyone was in there but no-one answered.
The strange thing was, it was hot in there. Not only are the leaking pools still full of water, but it also appears they are still heated!
It's very green of the council. Perhaps the security people who are supposed to be looking after it fancied a swim!
The strange thing was, it was hot in there. Not only are the leaking pools still full of water, but it also appears they are still heated!
It's very green of the council. Perhaps the security people who are supposed to be looking after it fancied a swim!
My understanding from speaking to a (possibly the same) member of Friends of Forest Hill Pools, is that the 'usual rate' is the pool leaking at a rate of 10 times per year. When they completely drained the pool and then refilled it, it was leaking at a much higher rate.Max wrote: One surprising thing emerged from the reading, the fact that the alarming rate of leakage happened during the refilling of the pools and then it decreased to the usual rate and stabilized there.
I don't completely understand why the pool is still being heated, I think part of the fear is that if they stopped heating it in this weather then it could do more damage. Now that refurbishment has been ruled out by the council there are plans to switch off heating fairly soon and then to drain the pools.