Hi
Dont want to put a damp squib on what are usually more upbeat subjects but would be really interested to hear the personal experience of other people in Sydenham. Please no flippant remarks on this occassion.
I moved from Tower Hamlets about 6 months ago. I grew up there, sad to say good bye, but happy to move to Sydenham. However in the the time I have moved here I have experienced numerous incidents of racist situations - name calling and racist-related noises; whereas this rarely happened in TH. Yes the ethnic mix of the two boroughs differ and I also acknowledge some of the incidents have involved youths trying to impress each other; and sorry to say it, they happen in lower sydenham end, not experienced it after passing Kent House Road towards the station.
Its just really getting me down. Dont feel can say anything...in this day and age, dont want be knifed! Just feel am suffering in silence.
racism
I am sorry to hear of your experiences Pumpkin. I have been here in Sydders for almost a decade and I have never been aware of any racism, inverse or otherwise.
Oddly enough [though perhaps not so if you ever visit there] I was abused in Acton for being a British White Male. The same thing happened in Islington. The worst I have had here in Sydders is being called a 'posh tw*t' as I left The Dolphin one evening. Probably fair comment.
Perhaps you could elaborate on your situation? If it is more 'traditional' racism I would be surprised to find it in Lower Sydenham as that area seems to have a very high concentration of BME. Equally dissapointing is that you say they were young. I'd have hoped that after successive large-scale immigration generations ago that our youngsters would be more racially tolerant. Or am I mis-reading your situation?
Sydders is incredibly diverse in terms of it's demography not only in wealth indices but we were roughly 27% BME at the last census in 2001.
Oddly enough [though perhaps not so if you ever visit there] I was abused in Acton for being a British White Male. The same thing happened in Islington. The worst I have had here in Sydders is being called a 'posh tw*t' as I left The Dolphin one evening. Probably fair comment.
Perhaps you could elaborate on your situation? If it is more 'traditional' racism I would be surprised to find it in Lower Sydenham as that area seems to have a very high concentration of BME. Equally dissapointing is that you say they were young. I'd have hoped that after successive large-scale immigration generations ago that our youngsters would be more racially tolerant. Or am I mis-reading your situation?
Sydders is incredibly diverse in terms of it's demography not only in wealth indices but we were roughly 27% BME at the last census in 2001.
Am of Chinese heritage so i will leave it to your imagination as to the names / noises made.
The main fustration is a white family at the bottom of my street - the teen girls find me easy target when their mates are round. Cant get home without passing their house!! So far, am refusing to take a 5min detour to get home. Their parents do not necessary look like they would understand, and if they did, chances are after the parents speak to them (and maybe punish them) it will get worse.
the incident the night before last involved two east european young men (they were speaking own language and could not even verbally abuse me with proper English and had a thick e-european acent!!)
yes - i know it sounds bad, but underclass selecting easy target to find someone or group that they deem lower than themselves in society.
The main fustration is a white family at the bottom of my street - the teen girls find me easy target when their mates are round. Cant get home without passing their house!! So far, am refusing to take a 5min detour to get home. Their parents do not necessary look like they would understand, and if they did, chances are after the parents speak to them (and maybe punish them) it will get worse.
the incident the night before last involved two east european young men (they were speaking own language and could not even verbally abuse me with proper English and had a thick e-european acent!!)
yes - i know it sounds bad, but underclass selecting easy target to find someone or group that they deem lower than themselves in society.
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Trawlerman
- Posts: 318
- Joined: 17 Sep 2009 13:56
- Location: Sydenham
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Trawlerman
- Posts: 318
- Joined: 17 Sep 2009 13:56
- Location: Sydenham
Eagle: BME stands for Black and Minority Ethnic.
Pumpkin: A difficult situation indeed. I feel somewhat obliged to apologise for these Neanderthals. Although I'm doing Neanderthals a bit of a disservice as they were alot more intelligent and successful than history gives them credit for. I may have the same skin colour as them but mercifully that is where any comparison begins and ends, still, they shame me though.
I am not naive enough to think this simply doesn't happen in Sydders but I do think it rare and am sorry for what you are going through. I personally would feel compelled to report this matter to the authorities but can understand your reticence...making an already difficult situation even less tolerable. What is the make up of your road? Perhaps worth speaking to some neighbours to see if they are experiencing similar treatment? This might allow you to tackle the issue as a group rather than a lone individual.
Sounds to me like these articles might be our increasingly troublesome white-underclass? If so you might wish to take this up with Lewisham council...they could be evicted if, as I suspect, their home is Local Authority owned? Although scum like this will no doubt think they are the victims should this happen! The Eastern Europeans I'm afraid are rather renowned for somewhat insititutional racism.
I'm disappointed that they are racist at such an age but I'd imagine they are taking their lead from their parent's (assuming both live at home?). I had hoped that racism was confined to a particular generation...your typical Sun/Daily Star/Mirror reader if I were to describe them. Shame to see it's still alive and kicking.
I wish you luck in whatever course of action you decide to follow.
Pumpkin: A difficult situation indeed. I feel somewhat obliged to apologise for these Neanderthals. Although I'm doing Neanderthals a bit of a disservice as they were alot more intelligent and successful than history gives them credit for. I may have the same skin colour as them but mercifully that is where any comparison begins and ends, still, they shame me though.
I am not naive enough to think this simply doesn't happen in Sydders but I do think it rare and am sorry for what you are going through. I personally would feel compelled to report this matter to the authorities but can understand your reticence...making an already difficult situation even less tolerable. What is the make up of your road? Perhaps worth speaking to some neighbours to see if they are experiencing similar treatment? This might allow you to tackle the issue as a group rather than a lone individual.
Sounds to me like these articles might be our increasingly troublesome white-underclass? If so you might wish to take this up with Lewisham council...they could be evicted if, as I suspect, their home is Local Authority owned? Although scum like this will no doubt think they are the victims should this happen! The Eastern Europeans I'm afraid are rather renowned for somewhat insititutional racism.
I'm disappointed that they are racist at such an age but I'd imagine they are taking their lead from their parent's (assuming both live at home?). I had hoped that racism was confined to a particular generation...your typical Sun/Daily Star/Mirror reader if I were to describe them. Shame to see it's still alive and kicking.
I wish you luck in whatever course of action you decide to follow.
I would like to associate myself with the comments made above. A moderator has a fear about racism discussions as they can go very bad. However, Pumpkin, your post has had the extraordinary effect of uniting people who normally share very little with each other.
That is the good news - racism is becoming increasingly isolated. Doesn't make it any better when it happens to an individual in the street. But as a community it is the racists, not you, that is in the despised minority.
Admin
That is the good news - racism is becoming increasingly isolated. Doesn't make it any better when it happens to an individual in the street. But as a community it is the racists, not you, that is in the despised minority.
Admin
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Trawlerman
- Posts: 318
- Joined: 17 Sep 2009 13:56
- Location: Sydenham
You're right Trawlerman. To all the readers of the Sun/Star/Mirror out there who are not racist/misogynist/xenophobic et al then I wholeheartedly apologise for my earlier comments...to all two of you.Trawlerman wrote:Some excellent ideas here. But, we should avoid our own temptation to stereotype. Although it is always tempting!! ['typical 'Sun', 'Star'...etc reader'...'White underclass'...etc]
No, seriously though. It's not fair comment. My own family are avid readers of the Sun primarily because of it's pro-Military stance. I know for alot of people the 'tabs' are a good read as they are easy or good on sport etc.
BUT stereotypes often exist for a reason and are based somewhat on fact. The editorial stance of these pseudo right-wing red-tops exists beacuse it panders to a large part of it's readerships view-points? Wouldn't you say/agree?
I wasn't intending on inciting anyone or inflaming any group but the impact of the increasingly errant white-underclass is well documented; 'Broken Britain' and all that.
None of this is important though. Indeed it's a whole other debate and thread. What IS important is Pumpkin's situation...
To that end could you please keep us abreast of your travails Pumpkin...via PM or otherwise?
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Trawlerman
- Posts: 318
- Joined: 17 Sep 2009 13:56
- Location: Sydenham
Of course you have a point, Ulysses. And, of course the 'red tops' pander to the views of their readers. Pander to and, at the same time, help to formulate.
Stereotypes happen because of reasons...also true. But, beware of caricatures. They are also originally based on 'facts'. And, unfortunately the consequences have proven to be quite horrific: The York massacre, various pogroms, Nazism, Cambodia Year Zero, Bosnian massacres, Rwanda...
Generally speaking, [unfortunately...because human nature has some 'unfortunate' aspects...] these things, I believe, are important. None of this negates the impact of local racism on individuals today; the front line, so to speak.
The only answer is 'proper' education.
Stereotypes happen because of reasons...also true. But, beware of caricatures. They are also originally based on 'facts'. And, unfortunately the consequences have proven to be quite horrific: The York massacre, various pogroms, Nazism, Cambodia Year Zero, Bosnian massacres, Rwanda...
Generally speaking, [unfortunately...because human nature has some 'unfortunate' aspects...] these things, I believe, are important. None of this negates the impact of local racism on individuals today; the front line, so to speak.
The only answer is 'proper' education.
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Bovine Juice
- Posts: 266
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- Location: Penge
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Nickerbockers
- Posts: 228
- Joined: 31 Oct 2007 13:04
- Location: Sydenham
I'm sorry that has happened to you. But I have to say wherever you get a large mixture of different ethnic backgrounds all living in one area, there is racism right across the board. I'm white and have had it myself from other races, and it does upset me and make me angry... but I try and live with it and remember that people like that are the minority.
You don't say what road you live in, but it sounds like you have had the misfortune to move into an intolerant neighbourhood! I do hope things get better for you soon.
You don't say what road you live in, but it sounds like you have had the misfortune to move into an intolerant neighbourhood! I do hope things get better for you soon.
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Yellow Peril
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 9 Dec 2007 00:34
- Location: The 'Nam.
Racism.
I am a British Chinese woman who has lived in Sydenham for nearly 5 years.
I too live in the Lower Sydenham end. I love it here.
I have to say that, to date, I haven't experienced any racism here, aside from the usual loaded glance that 'we' instinctively recognise as unfriendly. Or is it just paranoia? I'm not altogether sure, it's very subtle, isn't it?
However, what you've experienced is just awful and shouldn't be tolerated. We all have the right to exist within the same stomping ground without feeling intimidated. I understand the hurt, and maybe even fear, you must feel when you hear these comments.
I do think though that we often believe others' behaviour can be measured using the same yardstick that we apply to our own lives and attitudes towards others. Unfortunately, this only leads to disappointment, in my opinion. Our own friends and family (if we're honest) so rarely live up to our ideals, do they? So, what chance do total strangers who have been morally led from an entirely different pathway to ours have?
The fact that people with such varying opinions, pre-conditioned prejudices and levels of respect co-exist at all without more friction is a miracle.
Therefore, I would say that it is probably best to pay no mind to these small-minded individuals. I know it's hard, given that once a comment has been thrown at you, you don't know if there is further intention behind it. It would seem, as you already said, that they are showing off in front of their mates. They're ignorant - either of the fact that it's getting you down and would be mortified if they were aware of the impact it's had on you, or just that they haven't quite developed the brain matter to learn the respectful way to address their fellow man.
If they never learn tolerance? Pity the fools, Pumpkin, because living with hatred must surely eat them up. Frankly, I have too good a life to be getting on with to worry myself over small-minded bigots.
Just step aside, allow it to wash over you and forget about them.
I too live in the Lower Sydenham end. I love it here.
I have to say that, to date, I haven't experienced any racism here, aside from the usual loaded glance that 'we' instinctively recognise as unfriendly. Or is it just paranoia? I'm not altogether sure, it's very subtle, isn't it?
However, what you've experienced is just awful and shouldn't be tolerated. We all have the right to exist within the same stomping ground without feeling intimidated. I understand the hurt, and maybe even fear, you must feel when you hear these comments.
I do think though that we often believe others' behaviour can be measured using the same yardstick that we apply to our own lives and attitudes towards others. Unfortunately, this only leads to disappointment, in my opinion. Our own friends and family (if we're honest) so rarely live up to our ideals, do they? So, what chance do total strangers who have been morally led from an entirely different pathway to ours have?
The fact that people with such varying opinions, pre-conditioned prejudices and levels of respect co-exist at all without more friction is a miracle.
Therefore, I would say that it is probably best to pay no mind to these small-minded individuals. I know it's hard, given that once a comment has been thrown at you, you don't know if there is further intention behind it. It would seem, as you already said, that they are showing off in front of their mates. They're ignorant - either of the fact that it's getting you down and would be mortified if they were aware of the impact it's had on you, or just that they haven't quite developed the brain matter to learn the respectful way to address their fellow man.
If they never learn tolerance? Pity the fools, Pumpkin, because living with hatred must surely eat them up. Frankly, I have too good a life to be getting on with to worry myself over small-minded bigots.
Just step aside, allow it to wash over you and forget about them.
A truly excellent post Yellow Peril. I find myself thinking about pumpkin [got to take some library books back] and I really hope that the situation doesn't deteriorate and, indeed, that things improve. Here's hoping.
I do think the 'how the paper you take defines you' debate is an interesting one and as I said in my last post here it's an idea to have a completely separate thread. I always find this tit-bit fascinating though:
The newspaper with the highest percentage of Oxbridge graduates writing for it is...The Sun! It beggars belief that the same graduate recruitment policy as the Foreign Office employs is used by News International. It's clearly that difficult to write for a readership with an average reading-age of 9! I believe it follows suit with the other red-tops in terms of percentage but to a slightly lesser degree.
For any red-top readers reading this not sure what Oxbridge is, it's the collective term for those who attended Oxford and Cambridge Universities.
I do think the 'how the paper you take defines you' debate is an interesting one and as I said in my last post here it's an idea to have a completely separate thread. I always find this tit-bit fascinating though:
The newspaper with the highest percentage of Oxbridge graduates writing for it is...The Sun! It beggars belief that the same graduate recruitment policy as the Foreign Office employs is used by News International. It's clearly that difficult to write for a readership with an average reading-age of 9! I believe it follows suit with the other red-tops in terms of percentage but to a slightly lesser degree.
For any red-top readers reading this not sure what Oxbridge is, it's the collective term for those who attended Oxford and Cambridge Universities.