Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

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What is the least worst option for the old athletics stadium

Rebuilt by CPFC as a football stadium
25
64%
Rebuilt by Spurs as an athletic stadium
14
36%
 
Total votes: 39

Hill Dweller
Posts: 500
Joined: 4 Jan 2011 19:54
Location: Upper Syd

Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by Hill Dweller »

Hi rsh, yes I get that but that was just my point .... :!:

Thing is that whatever map one looks at (and these are to scale unlike the Tube's design masterpiece) :
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=waltham ... CCkQ8gEwAA
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=waltham ... CCkQ8gEwAA
the south is not as well served as the north for rail transport.
As for buses of sufficient frequency (or even quick routes) :(

Norwood Jtn though, given it's not much of a destination, has fabulous frequencies.

I'm not in the relevant borough so I'll not have any say, even if the residents do get a chance to vote but/so I do empathise with them.

It's bizarre opportunism to 'rely' on the FC's name itself, they're what/where they are for so many reasons. Arsenal for example!
Duke of Clarence
Posts: 247
Joined: 27 May 2010 09:02
Location: over the hill

Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by Duke of Clarence »

HD makes some good points especially about this being a business venture not an altruistic community venture that must be accepted or the park will fall apart. So far Mr Parrish and his team are not offering any investment in the wider community. He is flogging Selhurst to pay for this move, not investing his own cash but the way this is being spoken of anyone would think he was a philnthropic saint/visionary. He is an insurance salesman I believe.

Comparing the influx of large crowds into the area from yesteryear is not realistic. To begin with back in the day, CPP was served by a second larger station to accomodate ther numbers, the High Level St that used to be on the Parade. Car ownership was a fraction then as it is now, even if you only go back 20 years the increase is huge, hence congestion we see all around us. And the population of the surrounding areas was much smaller. So for those who wish to bang on about CP being able to cope with crowds of 100,000 at the turn of the last century or indeed in the 60s can you please take a reality check? Actually try this...

I came across the following on VN, it made my eyes bleed, read it and weep:

Okey dokey here's some more figure fun :roll: :
So we got between 21-30 CPFC matches a year, plus a number of rugby league games plus "other" sporting fixtures plus summer concerts. The proposed stadium is going to be used a lot more than every other week and utilised to a much larger capacity than 20,000. I would imagine nearly every weekend and at least one evening a week, understandable as this is a private business venture after all. As I mentioned before why design a stadium with twice as much capacity as needed if the intention is to underuse it? The 20,000 figure is a red herring. Read the CPFC boards and see the posts predicting immediate and rapid membership growth, expect attendance to average at 30,000 if this proposal is realised.

Now lets take the 20,000 figure and estimate the number of cars that may decend on CP. Let's accept what the ambassadors are telling us, that the majority of fans will be using public transport, so let's say 14,000 fans arrive by train & bus and 1,000 (the proper locals as they call themselves!) arrive by foot. That's 15,000 people arriving and leaving at the same time.

I wonder how CP, Penge and Sydenham stations will cope but one thing's for sure they will be best avoided pre and post match/concert/other sporting event. That leaves 5,000 fans coming by car. How many cars will 5,000 people use? Let's say they come 2 to a car, that's 2,500 cars. The average car is 4m long. 2,500 x 4 = 10,000m or 10 kilometers. So this tells me that 2,500 cars on the single lane carriageways will take up a total of 10 kilometers of road space :shock: if they were lined up nose to nose. Of course the total road coverage will be more as they won't be travelling bumper to bumper.

Now let's do an estimate for 30,000 crowd using same criteria. 3/4s will come by public transport or by foot that leaves 7,500 people arriving by car and let's say each car carries 2 fans. That equates to 3,750 cars, which means a total of 15,000m or 15 kilometers :shock: :shock: of road space if they are bumper to bumper, more of not.

Now one last calculation for the 40,000 strong crowd. 30,000 arrive by public transport or on foot leaving 10,000 arriving by car. 5,000 cars measuring an average of 4m each would use up result in 20,000m or 20kilometers :shock: :shock: :shock: of road space.

How will this number of vehicles impact upon parking? Well if it's only 20,000 crowd then the predicted 2,500 cars will need 10K of parking space; if it's 30,000 they'll be needing 15K of road space and if it's a full house, sorry stadium, then 20K of parking space will be required :( :shock: :(

I am convinced that regardless of what emerges in the details, this area, it's transport hubs and it's environs cannot absorb the proposed volume of people or traffic without damage to the surrounding environment, infra structure and quality of life.
Hill Dweller
Posts: 500
Joined: 4 Jan 2011 19:54
Location: Upper Syd

Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by Hill Dweller »

You're talking tosh Syd and you should know it.
As is this press release headed 'Eagles fly home'.
http://www.cpfc.co.uk/page/News/0,,1032 ... 69,00.html
Don't eagles live in nests?
As in Selhurst/Croydon's 'The Nest' in this case?


CPP was not created for footballing purposes as you know. It was to re-house the Hyde Park exhibiition celebrating culture and manufacturing, the industrialisation (at least of the west) and mankind's achievements and creativity. Can you imagine the labour that went in to doing that? The tunnels going through to Norwood and Streatham are gobsmacking reminders of the steam era and, once again, CP station itself is breathtakingly high and glam.

The workers certainly deserved their leisure time footie matches but the fact that they named themselves after the project they were employed on has nada, zilch, nothing at all to do with the park itself as it was then or what's left of it.

I looked at the .pdf document and wish I could be faffed to open a Pb account to place it on thread, for those that don't like opening links.

The plan when finished would occupy half the park, the buyers of CPFC do not have the right to use it, the Council and Govt and community have the duty to improve the facilities, not profiteers. All just imhoo (as in honest not humble).
Rachael
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Joined: 23 Jan 2010 13:42
Location: Sydenham / Forest Hill Intersection

Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by Rachael »

HD - unless I missed something (haven't got me glasses on) the asterisks were around the word 'might' not the word 'train', so it seemed you had missed the point and were unfamiliar with the convention. Sorry if I mistook you for one of those forum members who hang around correcting people's grammar and punctuation just for the heck of it.
Hill Dweller
Posts: 500
Joined: 4 Jan 2011 19:54
Location: Upper Syd

Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by Hill Dweller »

agggh you're quite right rsh, it's me that does (actually) have an eyesight problem.

I'd taken them (several times) to be around 'trains' and hence my puzzlement as they often signify a quality judgement whereas my/Syd's 'convo' is about inadequacy/adequacy of that infrastructure.

Nope I don't often point out people's grammatical/typing errors .... I was deemed to have done so a couple of weeks back by asking someone ORDERING attention to one particular word by boldening and underlining it :lol: and my resentment about the ordering was deemed as my being the Bossyboots ........ yadder yadder.

People in many forums are NiD and this time was my turn!

.
Syd_Stone
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Joined: 3 Sep 2009 17:52
Location: Sydenham

Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by Syd_Stone »

Evening Mr Dweller et al,

Not sure why you would assume I don't use public transport. As it happens, I much prefer trains, buses and (push) bike to get around. I lived north of the river for more than 30 years and I've always found it astounding how badly people in the south of London think their connections are - you have so many different routes! I had always assumed that there was no train travel in the south east of London because the tube map effectively ignored it. When I got here, I realised just how well the area was served by mainline trains. OK, the train operators are disastrous when a flake of snow hits and they use robot voices to tell us how 'sorry' they are when trains are delayed, but in the main the service is good.

It's odd that the club should want to say it's 'going home' and then invoke the name 'the Nest' - which was indeed the name of the ground they went to in Selhurst after they left CP. There's a gap in my knowledge of the club, because they were the known as the glaziers up to a certain point - not sure when the whole 'eagle' thing came about. 'I guess The Nest' is a neat name for a club nicknamed the eagles, but there's nothing wrong with calling it 'Crystal Palace Stadium' in my view - nice and simple.

Created for football purposes? No it wasn't. Football had only just been codified when the Sydenham CP was built. Developed for football purposes? Demonstrably yes. Crystal Palace stadium held the FA Cup final. Average attendances were over 70,000. It also held the early England-Scotland internationals. King George V attended one of the games. Perhaps CP was chosen to hold such games because of its ability to cope with large crowds? What I don't know is why that didn't continue after the Great War, but I'm guessing the opening of Wembley in 1923 had something to do with it. And wasn't there plenty of cricket, too (WG Grace, etc.)? More evidence of the site's sporting past.

A more credible complaint is that the car didn't effectively exist when the Palace was in its heyday, and that travelling by car in the area on match days could be a nightmare. I do think that CPFC and Bromley would need to consider park and ride schemes as part of their plans - you get a discount on your ticket if you've got proof of travel by public transport.

Agreed about the engineering / architectural heritage that the Sydenham CP gave us. All designed to accommodate travel to and from the park.

I don't understand how anyone can conclude that the original club didn't name themselves after the park. I suppose they could have called themselves Anerley or Penge, but Crystal Palace would have made more sense to me, too. Wasn't it called Crystal Palace Park back then? (If not, my apologies.) Anyway, whichever way you look at it CPFC first played their football in CP Park. They can quite obviously suggest that relocating to the park would be 'coming home'.

The only issue that would cause me serious concern is, as I previously mentioned, the mass of the stadium. A lot of new football stadiums with similar capacities are very tall to give perfect sight lines, and I can't see how they could do that on the NSC site unless they dig down a lot (which would, I imagine, cost a lot more than just erecting a ground at the current level). You only need to look at the old Wembley and the new Wembley side by side to see the difference - and the new Wembley is only 15% bigger in seat capacity than the old one. That would mean the stadium looming over the dinosaur park, which wouldn't be good. They have the space to do it properly, but I wonder if they've made that calculation? Guess we won't know until more detailed plans are published.

(Thanks rshdunlop for pointing out the meaning of the asterisks.)
ALIB
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Location: East Sussex

Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by ALIB »

Crystal Palace: site of the first UK motoring fatality, i do believe.

and much later, "You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off"

Malcolm Allison (Palace manager from 1973-1976) rebranded the club 'The Eagles' to give it a more charasmatic feel.

I think people approach this issue (CPFC in CPP) with their minds made up. I have never seen anyone change their minds during an internet discussion. They become entrenched, if anything.

However, I know the Directors of CPFC are 'local boys made good' and as such, they know the benefits of keeping as many people happy as possible. This is the whole point of the Planning process and I'm sure quite a few legitimate concerns/objections will be raised by locals. Perhaps all of them can be addressed, perhaps not.

Currently the Park is a heavy millstone around Bromleys neck. The Park has very few revenue streams for the large amounts it requires for maintenance, nevermind improving the Park,
. And it is woefully underused.

It is therefore no surprise that Bromley would be keen to investigate all potential solutions to these problems.
Hill Dweller
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Joined: 4 Jan 2011 19:54
Location: Upper Syd

Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by Hill Dweller »

I think you'd find, Syd, if you looked at other topics than footie-related ones that as far as public transport is concerned I do nothing but praise and recommend it (for fulfilling the needs it has now and for the massive improvements in recent years, let alone just this one).

Not too long ago there was little point at all in me using my closest two stations as they served none of the areas I travel to these days. Now? Little point in using anything else.

I didn't mention cars in my post about CP's history as a cultural place as it was a given that they'd have been irrelevant (and my post was after all about the 'comparison' you were making about the crowds being catered for ...... then and now and there is no comparison to be made with the visitors to CP itself and those hoped for by the business consortium that bought a footie club to give itself some sort of credentials to move in to a park and build gawd knows what else to make income from. Many of Stuart's points are good btw.

As for the relevant council, I reckon Bromley would support anything at all that would take some responsibility off their hands, even some consortium wanting to build something like The Glades :( this is after all the era of 'Little Govt' (as in off-loading responsibility).

Assuming's bad ....... except that Bromley didn't have a great rep for altruism last I heard. Just imagine the income from that huge permimeter and its environs having 18/7 parking charges.

You have a vested interest in footie, I have one in liking the park for what it is (although I do wish the palace's remains themselvesand more of Brunel's / Paxton's work was being preserved and respected. I believe there's a mosaic hallway under the parade itself, what a shame there's nothing made of that.

I've wondered what the proposed Aquatic Centre will house, given that the present pool was refurbished, decontaminated of asbestos and only re-opened in '09.

.Hey ho.
Hill Dweller
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Joined: 4 Jan 2011 19:54
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Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by Hill Dweller »

As for Kate Hoey giving it the thumbs up LOL.


She campaigned against 2012 Olympics happening in UK; I have no idea what she's not faithless about.

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Eagle
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Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by Eagle »

I am 100% against the lunatic idea to pull down the Olympic Stadium and start again. What a disaster for our environment.

Best solution would be for The Glaziers to move back to their roots.
ALIB
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Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by ALIB »

Tottenham are playing a game of brinksmanship with Haringey Council in order to redevelop White Hart Lane.
Decision on the Olympic stadium put back to next week. , . . . .no douobt giving time for the 'incentivising' cheques to clear.
simon
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Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by simon »

I agree ALIB. Spurs have spent years buying up properties around White Hart Lane and the plans are well progressed. Nobody was expecting their bid for the Olympic site, least of all Plalace who have now had to announce their proposal before they probably wanted to.
Interestingly, the Spurs director who did a lot of the property acquisition was Paul Kelmsley, whose Rock Investments owned Selhurst Park before it went into administration.
davegr
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Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by davegr »

ALIB wrote:. And it is woefully underused.
ALIB, where do you get the idea that the park is underused. Do you ever go there??

I use it every day-it's enormously popular- dog walkers, cyclists, families, anglers. There is going to be enormous opposition to CP moving to the park and quite rightly.
ALIB
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Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by ALIB »

davegr wrote:
ALIB wrote:. And it is woefully underused.
ALIB, where do you get the idea that the park is underused. Do you ever go there??I use it every day-it's enormously popular- dog walkers, cyclists, families, anglers. There is going to be enormous opposition to CP moving to the park and quite rightly.

just my own opinion as a dogwalker. Without special events, the number of people within eyesight of me is generally countable on the fingers of one hand (or less).

Revenue streams are also notably lacking. Dog walkers and cyclists and family groups make no direct payment to the park. I would guess that as the park borders Sydenham, that probably only 50% of park users pay Council Tax to Bromley. (I live in Sydenham).
Anglers pay for their permits and also there is revenue from the cafe (possibly: not sure if it is privately operated)

So I would guess that residents around the park would want to know what CPFC could do to enhamce the site ?
Cafe's, museum,.. . . the family farm that I'm not even sure is open yet ,. .. . etc
Syd_Stone
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Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by Syd_Stone »

The park is used moderately for those playing the odd game, walking the odd dog or just visiting the dinosaurs. But in the middle of it all is this wide, space-consuming all-seater stadium - and it's virtually unused all year around.

Isn't this the point? A viable tenant for the stadium site leading to a green light for all the other park refurbishment? (Hill Dweller, the Palace Parade subway is a perfect example). It does indeed come down to a revenue argument, and the CPFC idea is certainly the most viable I've seen. All the other ideas, involving cinema complexes or selling off parkland to pay for maintenance, have come to a dead end. Here's a decent alternative based on genuine, regular revenues.

Mind you, for CPFC to fit in the park they'd need to clarify their stadium plans. I note that they are looking at up to three tiers of seats — that makes it a very tall building, one which the artist's impression fails to convey. I'm no architect, but it looks to me as if they'd need to dig down at least 40 feet to ensure the new ground doesn't dominate the surrounding skyline. That, as the football community might put it, is a "big ask".

Also, I question how an athletics track could be accommodated on the opposite side of the main NSC building. These aren't insurmountable issues, but we do need more detailed plans.
stuart
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Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by stuart »

Those that are most anxious to give away the Park appear to be people who do not use it, are unaware of what happens there and don't care a fig for those that do.

Last night (again) the car parks were full to overflowing (cars on the grass too). All on area to be taken by CPFC. So 22 can play sport but what of the many hundred there last night who, unless or until CPFC explain how, can access sport if there were a mid week match?

True the running track is grossly underused. Demolish it or enhance it - but we should be improving access (national, regional and locally) to sport. Not restricting it. A Football Stadium is primarily an entertainment complex - not a sporting one. The Multiplex Cinema proposal was roundly condemned. What is different here - indeed is its footprint even worse?

CPFC have a stadium. Convince me why this is not just a property developer scam dressed up in emotional nostalgia.

Stuart
Hill Dweller
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Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by Hill Dweller »

by ALIB » 25 Jan 2011 11:10

Have you referred to the .pdf document that has been posted, it lets us know how little the consortium intend to do for the park itself, despite squatting on half of it.
They are users exploiting a coincidence in names, it's as silly for them to do so as it would have been for Arsenal (pre-their own new ground) to claim they belonged in Woolwich.
CPFC has been based at Selhurst / The Nest for almost a century. They are nicknamed The Eagles, that's a much more suitable coincidence re the area/commodity/facilities the consortium should be 'improving' for residents.

They plainly intend CPC to become an advertising/commercial tool; private bars with no view of the pitch indeed :o and being in an area they see as already being more aesthetically pleasing and exploitable than Sehurst / N. Jtn.

They're usurping something they have no possession of or inherited right to, it's all so cynical.

A green space isn't meant to be a crowded place, without them a city / suburbs are pretty miserable dumps.
Wouldn't we laugh our socks off if Donald Trump used such a 'point' to want to build yet another skyscraper covering half of Central Park? Daft example I know ... :wink:
CPP was built for cultural/educational/philanthropic reasons, it was the old empire celebrating progress around the whole world. Was there also some boastfulness? Probably.

I don't know how Bromley came to be responsible for the whole space, whether they chose to be or were forced to be; I'm sure some forum users do but as to how many are looking in to this thread? There's been mention of its having done so being controversial ......

Syd_Stone » 25 Jan 2011 11:45
There's no linkage possible between the fact that CPC happens to have a little-used athletics stadium and the fact that a business consortium wants to take over our park.
Not unless you also want to express approval for some ConDem genius's new idea for English forests to also be sold off :?

The .pdf shows a car park with puddles, gee whizz ....... as Stuart has just nipped in and posted there is some pretty daft emotiveness happening about materialists' ambitions.



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Last edited by Hill Dweller on 25 Jan 2011 13:25, edited 1 time in total.
Hill Dweller
Posts: 500
Joined: 4 Jan 2011 19:54
Location: Upper Syd

Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by Hill Dweller »

Syd_Stone » 25 Jan 2011 11:45


Oh for heaven's sake Syd, just admit that your only criteria or interest in this is footie facilities. There are more and better ways than this for the Eagles' to become more aspirational and attract more fans.
dickp
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Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by dickp »

"There's no linkage possible between the fact that CPC happens to have a little-used athletics stadium and the fact that a business consortium wants to take over our park."

Yes there blinkin' well is.

If they were planning to build on park land (that is, grass), I'd object. The fact that they'd bring new jobs (not to mention fun) to a part of the park that's currently ugly, built on, and grossly under-used, is the key reason I've decided to support it. And I don't even like football.
Syd_Stone
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Joined: 3 Sep 2009 17:52
Location: Sydenham

Re: Crystal Palace stadium re-development?

Post by Syd_Stone »

Hi Hill Dweller,

Exploiting a coincidence in names? They were nicknamed the Glaziers before they were nicknamed the eagles, and their club badge incorporates the Crystal Palace. Why 'glaziers' ?- because of the Palace! It's not a coincidence, or a question of usurping, or inheritance — it's just historical fact.

Yes, I can see that Arsenal have a cannon in their emblem representing their historical link back to Woolwich Arsenal. But they are (I believe), the only example of a club that left its original home to set up somewhere completely different. All of today's football clubs seek to have solid connections to their home towns. What's good about this proposal is that the club's reputation would be bound up with the maintenance of the park as agreed between the two parties at the outset.

I'll only admit to an opinion, but if I had to think about my criteria, they would be:

1) sustainable park maintenance and refurbishment, tied to
2) sustainable activity on the stadium site,
3) without expanding the sports centre and stadium site beyond its current footprint,
4) ensuring that match day crowds are catered for adequately.

if I was solely concerned with 'football facilities', I'd be against the project — I've been playing football on the pitch next to the stadium for the past decade, so I'l be turfed out! As it is, I know just how hard Greenwich Leisure have to work to get a profit out of the NSC. It's been a struggle for everyone who's operated it. The facilities, for a 'national' sports centre, are embarrassing.

As for the CPFC board looking to exploit an area that is more 'aesthetically pleasing', presumably it would therefore be in their best interests to ensure it remains so?

Here's where we agree: you mention the private bars, etc. - and yes, they need to explain how all that can be accommodated without the bulk of the stadium impacting on the rest of the park. I mentioned the mass volume of the stadium last time out.

PS: It's true I enjoy football, but I'm not a Palace fan.

PPS: I agree with stuart about car access. I was also there last night and it obviously gets busy between 7 to 9pm. Maintaining sport centre access on match day evenings is certainly an issue they'd need to look into.
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