Lewisham Council are open to this idea.
I think this is a mistake. Once shops are converted to flats they never get converted back.
They are ugly and often poorly converted.
They often separate shopping districts, cutting off parades of shops and promote further decine.
Having spent Saturday mooching around East Dulwich, the sheer choice struck me. And it felt like a nice place to be. If in 1992 this area had mass conversions of shops to flats I doubt I would be writing this now (although in part Lordship Land has had this one). Choice is good. Having less shops means less choice.
Any area with nice architecure for it's shops always has the ability to regenerate. Notting HIll, East Dulwich, Hoxton, Shoreditch, Chiswick, Dalston, Woodstreet in Walthamstow, Exmouth Market, Clerkenwell, Kings Cross are all areas, Clapham, once down at heel and now regenerated, in part IMHO to the architecture and how that makes a place feel. And they kept their shops. But it takes time. It takes vision. It takes engagement.
It takes time, but it appears as if Lewisham are open to the idea of converting shops to residential in Sydenham. This is a short sighted view for how to improve our high streets and would be the final nail in the coffin for Sydenham.
To quote: "Lewisham Council has been quick to embrace the idea that old offices, shops and pubs can make good homes to live in - a number of commercial units sold by us have already been converted ahead of the Government's new stance.”
This quote was gleefully reported on an estate agents website.
Bear in mind that the council say 'Lewisham has a high rate of unemployment compared with many London boroughs". As reported on Lewisham council's website.
Our high streets are vital and important centres for community and amenity.
This is a policy great for developers and estate agents but not for Sydenham, shops or small business.
It's a policy I hope our local cllrs will highlight and fiercely oppose.
Or am I wrong?
Discuss:
CONVERTING EMPTY SHOPS TO FLATS
Re: CONVERTING EMPTY SHOPS TO FLATS
There's probably an over-supply of shops. Even if you curtail future out of town retail (which ain't going to happen in Sydenham - i.e. the new bell green development), you can't stop the internet or people travelling to shop.
There's a good argument in letting nature take its course, and the market finding a new level of sustainable retail. So if, for example, we lost a lot of retail space below Mayow Road, I for one wouldn't notice in the slightest. But no one's ever going to turn the "core" high street into homes.
But, you are right, some shop to home conversions have been darned ugly. I think that's a battle worth fighting - making sure they are done properly.
I think we're deluding ourselves if we think that we can sustain more shops than we actually need. It's no fair on us and, to be honest, it's not fair on the deluded fools on those who set up shop and then go bust six months later. What's more, a lot of these properties are taking up space that could be lived in. And there genuinely is a housing shortage.
There's a good argument in letting nature take its course, and the market finding a new level of sustainable retail. So if, for example, we lost a lot of retail space below Mayow Road, I for one wouldn't notice in the slightest. But no one's ever going to turn the "core" high street into homes.
But, you are right, some shop to home conversions have been darned ugly. I think that's a battle worth fighting - making sure they are done properly.
I think we're deluding ourselves if we think that we can sustain more shops than we actually need. It's no fair on us and, to be honest, it's not fair on the deluded fools on those who set up shop and then go bust six months later. What's more, a lot of these properties are taking up space that could be lived in. And there genuinely is a housing shortage.
Re: CONVERTING EMPTY SHOPS TO FLATS
Lee,
I don't disagree with the thrust of your posting, but East Dulwich did see quite a lot of shops converted to residential, some well, some badly. You can see a few examples:
Lordship Lane - http://goo.gl/maps/IAOM
Uplands Road - http://goo.gl/maps/TY41
North Cross Road - http://goo.gl/maps/YZO5
The impact of Sainsburys in Dog Kennel Hill sent East Dulwich into decline in 1990s. The concentration of shops into a smaller high street, and the conversion of shops to residential probably helped the survival and successful regeneration of East Dulwich.
It is difficult to admit sometimes, but there are possibly similar opportunities in Sydenham and Forest Hill. Since many of the shops in the area used to be residential, and the ground floor frontage is the intrusion, it seems reasonable to convert some back to residential (outside main shopping areas only). In my opinion we need high streets that are full of shops and they need to be centred around a relatively small location. Converting to residential on the periphery is best for the main shopping areas and good for providing necessary lower cost housing.
I don't disagree with the thrust of your posting, but East Dulwich did see quite a lot of shops converted to residential, some well, some badly. You can see a few examples:
Lordship Lane - http://goo.gl/maps/IAOM
Uplands Road - http://goo.gl/maps/TY41
North Cross Road - http://goo.gl/maps/YZO5
The impact of Sainsburys in Dog Kennel Hill sent East Dulwich into decline in 1990s. The concentration of shops into a smaller high street, and the conversion of shops to residential probably helped the survival and successful regeneration of East Dulwich.
It is difficult to admit sometimes, but there are possibly similar opportunities in Sydenham and Forest Hill. Since many of the shops in the area used to be residential, and the ground floor frontage is the intrusion, it seems reasonable to convert some back to residential (outside main shopping areas only). In my opinion we need high streets that are full of shops and they need to be centred around a relatively small location. Converting to residential on the periphery is best for the main shopping areas and good for providing necessary lower cost housing.
Re: CONVERTING EMPTY SHOPS TO FLATS
Hi Dickp,
I thought you might disagree!
We have different opinions on high streets. Regulated shopping destinations are successful where they have been controlled by a management company, bid groups, market companies etc such as markets, shopping malls, places like Kingston which had the first BID group (and almost 100% occupancy of it's shops) and major shopping streets.
HIgh streets are failing because they are left to their own devices. I know you don't agree and that somehow nature and free markets are best, but the evidence is there.
If this policy had been applied across London then we would have no high streets left! Lewisham seem eager to be at the forefront of policy, be it closing libraries, converting shops to residential or slum clearance as seen in the recently Deptford program.
I think they need to think more long term.
Lewisham got rid of Tanners hill in Deptford which was once a major shopping area, Honour Oak lost a large percentage of it's shops. Kirkdale is starting to and so has Dartmouth Road, which is currently undergoing a rejuvenation with some really exciting shops opening there thanks to the excitement over the pools.
As for housing, there are over a million of empty properties, and hundreds of thousands of empty flats above shops which should be brought back into use before we start turning our high streets into urban deserts.
I thought you might disagree!
We have different opinions on high streets. Regulated shopping destinations are successful where they have been controlled by a management company, bid groups, market companies etc such as markets, shopping malls, places like Kingston which had the first BID group (and almost 100% occupancy of it's shops) and major shopping streets.
HIgh streets are failing because they are left to their own devices. I know you don't agree and that somehow nature and free markets are best, but the evidence is there.
If this policy had been applied across London then we would have no high streets left! Lewisham seem eager to be at the forefront of policy, be it closing libraries, converting shops to residential or slum clearance as seen in the recently Deptford program.
I think they need to think more long term.
Lewisham got rid of Tanners hill in Deptford which was once a major shopping area, Honour Oak lost a large percentage of it's shops. Kirkdale is starting to and so has Dartmouth Road, which is currently undergoing a rejuvenation with some really exciting shops opening there thanks to the excitement over the pools.
As for housing, there are over a million of empty properties, and hundreds of thousands of empty flats above shops which should be brought back into use before we start turning our high streets into urban deserts.
Re: CONVERTING EMPTY SHOPS TO FLATS
Michael - it just so happens that I know the people who live in that house on Northcross Road. It's certainly not the worst shop conversion I've seen and the residential space inside works well.
However, having myself lived in such a conversion, I can say that they are not always the most pleasant of places to live. The glass front means the every sound from the street carries into the house, and security is a concern. You have to keep blinds and shutters closed to maintain privacy, which makes the inside darker than if you had normal windows.
I wonder if these buildings were once houses that were converted to shops and now have been converted back again. Is there an argument for insisting that if they are converted back to residential, they should have the original frontages restored?
However, having myself lived in such a conversion, I can say that they are not always the most pleasant of places to live. The glass front means the every sound from the street carries into the house, and security is a concern. You have to keep blinds and shutters closed to maintain privacy, which makes the inside darker than if you had normal windows.
I wonder if these buildings were once houses that were converted to shops and now have been converted back again. Is there an argument for insisting that if they are converted back to residential, they should have the original frontages restored?
Re: CONVERTING EMPTY SHOPS TO FLATS
Good thread Lee, and I like the sound of Sydenham Road - at least part of it - as a regulated shopping destination controlled by a management company. But the more I think it through, the more difficulties I see. Do you have instances where it has worked? I guess that's what BIDs are about partially....
Re: CONVERTING EMPTY SHOPS TO FLATS
I completely agree with Lee about the need to keep our shops as shops.
What I would love to see is a return to the shopkeeper living above the shop. Or at least that the accommodation above the shops is kept as originaly designed. I'm very concerned about the loss of historic buildings. as for example has happened on the Kirkdale/Dartmouth Road corner, where our old High Street is becoming a complete eyesore.
These runs of shops were carefully designed originally and the haphazard development above street level - where buildings get ever higher and higher - completely spoils the identity of the area and the proportions of the building.
Having been lucky enough in my youth to have Roy Porter as my guide walking thorugh London streets, he taught me to look above the ground floor to see how beautiful our shopping parades used to be. Alas in my corner of Sydenham that's no longer the case ... I think he must be spinning.
What I would love to see is a return to the shopkeeper living above the shop. Or at least that the accommodation above the shops is kept as originaly designed. I'm very concerned about the loss of historic buildings. as for example has happened on the Kirkdale/Dartmouth Road corner, where our old High Street is becoming a complete eyesore.
These runs of shops were carefully designed originally and the haphazard development above street level - where buildings get ever higher and higher - completely spoils the identity of the area and the proportions of the building.
Having been lucky enough in my youth to have Roy Porter as my guide walking thorugh London streets, he taught me to look above the ground floor to see how beautiful our shopping parades used to be. Alas in my corner of Sydenham that's no longer the case ... I think he must be spinning.
Re: CONVERTING EMPTY SHOPS TO FLATS
I'm afraid it's not only Lewisham: Bromley seems to be doing the same thing. Almost a case of "if it moves, convert it into a house" (well, you know what I mean!). Not just shops, but minor industrial premises and anything else they can think of. Not to mention building existing storeys on top of above-shop flats.
Re: CONVERTING EMPTY SHOPS TO FLATS
Indeed, which is why it's wrong to go straight to criticising Lewisham Council on this - we should try to understand the forces acting on them, and what their options are. The main one is the pressure for more housing, which comes via both government and private developers, but ultimately from people wanting to live here. We can wish them away, which is what Eagle calls foralywin wrote:I'm afraid it's not only Lewisham: Bromley seems to be doing the same thing. Almost a case of "if it moves, convert it into a house" (well, you know what I mean!). Not just shops, but minor industrial premises and anything else they can think of. Not to mention building existing storeys on top of above-shop flats.
but in fact people come to London more for the employment opportunities - not in large scale industry - rather than the benefits, which will indeed go further in say Walsall.A halt to the continued rise in London and the south east's population increase.
...
Where are the jobs in S E London for the additional folk , or indeed the folk already here. No large scale industry will come to a large built up area. They need good road links.
It was a good idea for instance suggesting the long term unemployed move to places like Walsall . Their benefits would go further there.
So we need some sensible policies on how we are going to get this additional housing, and a point blank refusal to consider conversion of empty shops is not going to be taken too seriously by Lewisham Council. One approach would be to let market forces play. I don't think this would spell the end of Sydenham Road for some kind of retail / restaurant / café offer, since the footfall of people living here, walking to and from from the station will mean some premises will generate higher rents from such uses than residential. But better policies would give a better outcome.
IMHO there is one general area for policy improvement we need above all others, which is to make it easier for the private sector to build more houses. As argued on various other threads, this should not mean building on parks, allotments, even back gardens, but would mean higher rise redevelopment of existing developed land - the sort of thing Alywin objects to in "building ... storeys on top of above-shop flats". The reason for saying the private sector is principally because that is where the money for the necessary investment could come from. The government is in general short of money, and even before the latest crisis cut back on money for new social housing - not least because it decided that this budget should go to raising the standards of existing social housing - the 'decent homes' programme. Another reason for allowing more private sector development is that it will aim at the higher end of the market, so bringing in more affluent residents who will patronise the nicer shops most of us hope for on Sydenham Road.
The problem for Lewisham Council is that, like every other Council, they would be up against vociferous opposition in allowing this, e.g. from most of us here on this Forum - even though the impact on their finances via increased Council Tax receipts and Community Infrastructure Levy would be wholly positive. As a Labour Council, they would also feel very uncomfortable to see more housing being built for the rich than for the poor, and as well as allowing evil private sector developers to enrich themselves. It would be nice if they could get over such qualms, because more housing for people with higher incomes means where these people live currently is freed up for those on lower incomes, so also relieving the pressure on them. It really is a simple matter of supply and demand. Also, private sector developers aren't all evil, and we should be able to control the evil of those that are by sensible, enforcible regulation.
Re: CONVERTING EMPTY SHOPS TO FLATS
Look at this link.
It kinda says it all really…
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tetramesh/ ... 49545@N00/
It kinda says it all really…
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tetramesh/ ... 49545@N00/