From my previous topic about the Crystal Palace Company it seems Sydenham and Penge were quite closely connected, with land on one side of Westwood Hill possibly belonging to the Manor Of Penge. In another topic I've also revealed how there was a trackway from Abbey's Farm (nextdoor to Sydenham Hall) going all the way down to Old Cople Lane, which was the main direct road from Sydenham Hill to Penge High Street before Crystal Palace Park Road was laid down as a diversion around the perimeter of the new gardens to the palace (Old Cople Lane and another trackway that connected it with Anerley Hill got landscaped over for the most part).
How many visitors to this forum are aware of tollgates--like the Dulwich one down College Road--being in Newlands Park and Kent House Lane prior to the late 19th century? It seems that Sydenham to Penge was quite an important route. Has anyone seen any photos of these tollgates by any chance? There's plenty of College Road and New Cross, but I don't recall seeing anything of Newlands Park/Kent House Road. They were positioned at the boundary of the parishes; remember, before you can reach Penge you must first cross the Beckenham border. Kent House Lane had a tollgate, apparently, because it was a private road belonging to the farm.
Where did these roads lead to? They led to Penge Lane and Green Lane, which contained a number of old buildings fringing the north edge of Penge Common, including the Crooked Billet public house. Kent House Lane came out on Beckenham Road. There were more buildings where Beckenham Road reached a dead end at the eastern edge of Penge Common, slightly west, in line with Green Lane. The Robin Hood public house in Croydon Road was another building at the eastern edge of Penge Common, albeit further southwards. Anerley Hill and Croydon Road were apparently laid out when the enclosure award was granted in 1837.
Penge Common and Norwood Common were practically joined together--apart from Anerley Hill's ancestral trackway that split them in half--or was it the Penge Stream that split them? The stream certainly ran close to the line of Anerley Hill. It was a tributary of Sydenham's Pool river--just like the Boundary Stream that ran alongside Old Cople Lane--dividing Penge and Beckenham parishes, horizontally. Further east, Penge and Beckenham were divided vertically by the Chaffinch Brook (another of the Pool's tributaries), which ran alongside Kent House Lane. The ridge of Sydenham Heights marked the western boundary of Penge/Common, but it seems parts of the common had already been enclosed illegally by the time of the 1837 award when Penge Place happened to be fringing the common, in the northwestern corner. There were small buildings near Vicar's Oak in the southwestern corner at what is now the roundabout leading to the Norwood Triangle. Unfortunately, besides Penge Place and the public houses, I know next to nothing about the old buildings that circled the common.
I've recently come across 3 paintings featuring some of the Penge Common buildings referenced above as well as a postcard showing a painting of the ancient Crooked Billet, which stood on the opposite corner to where it is now (before the Almshouses were built and the pub rebuilt). As most people are aware, it's very difficult to find out any historical information about Penge, but I'm working on it now and hope to soon have answers to atleast some of the questions on my mind, like: what activities occurred on the common? (etc.)
What I can answer now is that people once paid money to travel from Sydenham to Penge! What did Penge have that Sydenham never had? Was it just for the sake of convenience? It was fairly easy to have avoided the toll by going across the trackway previous to the Parade--just like we can easily avoid College Road when driving to a destination in or around Dulwich.
Sydenham's connection with Penge
Sydenham's connection with Penge
Last edited by Falkor on 28 Oct 2007 20:53, edited 2 times in total.
Poor old Penge!!!! always had a hard time.
smashed to pieces in the war,more flying bombs on it than any where else in London.
Penge Lane is about the oldest road in Penge; Hardings Lane, across the railway was were I used to live, named after a previous Farm I heard. I saw a map somewhere on here I think which would have placed the toll gate somewhere around Hardings lane, but those old maps are not the most accurate.
There were a of of old houses in Penge Lane in the 1970`s, which rapidly were knocked down in Bromley councils rush to destroy Penge.
From the railway there was a row of workmans houses, [demolished circa 1973/4 for a lorry park] then a row of shops, an off license[Polish] a newsagent and sweet shop. betting shop, a pet/coal merchant shop. and a cafe, on the next corner someone had built a glass case with abible in it, turned one page a day, then Penge square which is believe din some quarters to be the old line of the lane, them a chippy, followed by another row of houses at least one was a shop, a barbers, then the Crooked Billet, truncated by a V1
Not sure about the Billet being on the opposite corner to where it is now; of next to the Billet used to be a real butcher shop, something like 4 generations in the family, used to talk backslang amongst themselves. They claimed that where the Almshouses were built
was the field in which they kept the animals before they slaughtered them at the back of the shop.
Worst thing that ever happened to Penge was Bromley council; it was like a little village in the sixties; Penge and Anerley Urban district council it was before.
Theres a nice White Regency style house which is/was a dentists on the left going up High st which gives an idea of the type of house which used to be there,; some imposing houses knocked down off Penge lane to build the sink estate thats there now.
A lot of Industry, including a motorcycle factory, was there in late Victorian/Edwardian times, lots of small plant nurseries, market gardens, a pig farm off Kent House road, until the sixties I believe.
the work spin off from the Crystal Palaceand earleir the canal must have ben tremendous, Penge west station, is more or less on the site of the Penge canal wharf, used to be a fair size railway yard there too I think Did Sydenham have a wharf?
The Alexandra estate, in which Charles Dickens was reputed to have some involvement is still sought after.
Flying bombs started the decline, Bromley council finished it
I think a parish marker can be found some where in Parish Lane by the end of Penge Lane.
It always used to nark me how I would be loaded for my insurance in SE20 Penge Lane, whereas 50 yards away, under the bridge was Beckenham, thus a more worthy place, and cheaper to insure.
Its logical to me that the route through Penge would be more noteworthy as it is the routes from the low lying area to the common lands, West and Great North woods which would have been used for grazing animals. timber harvest .etc
When driving animals in bulk, one takes the shortest route thats how most highways get established surely?
I doubt Trewsbury road existed at the time of Rocques map . Too straight, too orderly laid out, likely driven through fields to build those big victorian houses that Lewisham tried so hard to demolish.
You not believe what a pleasent, if tatty place Penge used to be in the 50s/60s, blooming war zone when I left 1988.
Is one of your pictures an old cottage in Penge Lane? I have something like it somewhere.
smashed to pieces in the war,more flying bombs on it than any where else in London.
Penge Lane is about the oldest road in Penge; Hardings Lane, across the railway was were I used to live, named after a previous Farm I heard. I saw a map somewhere on here I think which would have placed the toll gate somewhere around Hardings lane, but those old maps are not the most accurate.
There were a of of old houses in Penge Lane in the 1970`s, which rapidly were knocked down in Bromley councils rush to destroy Penge.
From the railway there was a row of workmans houses, [demolished circa 1973/4 for a lorry park] then a row of shops, an off license[Polish] a newsagent and sweet shop. betting shop, a pet/coal merchant shop. and a cafe, on the next corner someone had built a glass case with abible in it, turned one page a day, then Penge square which is believe din some quarters to be the old line of the lane, them a chippy, followed by another row of houses at least one was a shop, a barbers, then the Crooked Billet, truncated by a V1
Not sure about the Billet being on the opposite corner to where it is now; of next to the Billet used to be a real butcher shop, something like 4 generations in the family, used to talk backslang amongst themselves. They claimed that where the Almshouses were built
was the field in which they kept the animals before they slaughtered them at the back of the shop.
Worst thing that ever happened to Penge was Bromley council; it was like a little village in the sixties; Penge and Anerley Urban district council it was before.
Theres a nice White Regency style house which is/was a dentists on the left going up High st which gives an idea of the type of house which used to be there,; some imposing houses knocked down off Penge lane to build the sink estate thats there now.
A lot of Industry, including a motorcycle factory, was there in late Victorian/Edwardian times, lots of small plant nurseries, market gardens, a pig farm off Kent House road, until the sixties I believe.
the work spin off from the Crystal Palaceand earleir the canal must have ben tremendous, Penge west station, is more or less on the site of the Penge canal wharf, used to be a fair size railway yard there too I think Did Sydenham have a wharf?
The Alexandra estate, in which Charles Dickens was reputed to have some involvement is still sought after.
Flying bombs started the decline, Bromley council finished it
I think a parish marker can be found some where in Parish Lane by the end of Penge Lane.
It always used to nark me how I would be loaded for my insurance in SE20 Penge Lane, whereas 50 yards away, under the bridge was Beckenham, thus a more worthy place, and cheaper to insure.
Its logical to me that the route through Penge would be more noteworthy as it is the routes from the low lying area to the common lands, West and Great North woods which would have been used for grazing animals. timber harvest .etc
When driving animals in bulk, one takes the shortest route thats how most highways get established surely?
I doubt Trewsbury road existed at the time of Rocques map . Too straight, too orderly laid out, likely driven through fields to build those big victorian houses that Lewisham tried so hard to demolish.
You not believe what a pleasent, if tatty place Penge used to be in the 50s/60s, blooming war zone when I left 1988.
Is one of your pictures an old cottage in Penge Lane? I have something like it somewhere.
Not sure if it is relevant. My mum lives in Fairlawn Park at Sydenham, one off the houses by the alloments. On the last house beside the alloments, their is a stone in the wall stating that ' 3 foot beyond this wall, starts the bounty of Bromley (Kent????)' Will have another look when Im up during the week.